| Statement of October 10, 1989 |
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Re earring This is Michael Brown's statement of October 10, 1989. It is derived from Barry Smith's cross-examination of Michael Brown at Buckley's trial on May 9, 1991 - Vol V (#9) pp. 819 - 943. This is the statement Michael gave after being brought into Pennsylvania by the limousine, after which he was arrested. It is also the last statement he gave - until threatened with the death penalty. More accurately, it is what we have culled from trial transcripts as Buckley's defense attorney Barry Smith cross-examines Michael Brown concerning this statement. This was necessary because all of Mr. Brown's statements have been removed by the Pennsylvania State Police. What is actually occurring here is attorney Smith is playing Michael Brown's videotaped statement, stopping it to inquire of Mr. Brown as to the truth of specific statements within. It was desirable (here) to omit Mr. Smith's cross-examination of these matters, as all together it encompasses over 100 pages of transcripts. The only problem is that the court reporter appears to miss the beginning of the testimony at the restarting of the video in a number of instances, but it is quite intelligible, at least for our purposes. The primary benefit is that it enables one to focus on Mr. Brown's actual statement. It should be noted that the preceeding statement of (October 6), is where Michael had actually first indicated his own involvement in these crimes, stating that he had removed the victim's blouse and bra, and that he had witnessed Jay Buckley rape and murder Kathy Wilson. (This was in fact the information cited by Herzog as probable cause in his arrest warrant for Michael Brown on charges of murder, and accomplice to kidnap and rape).
Of course,
Herzog later claims (in his testimony at Buckley's trial) that the
real probable cause
was what Michael Brown said in this (October 10) statement about Kathy Wilson "bolting to the right". There is also a very significant variance between what Michael Brown actually said in this statement - and what Herzog testified to that he said.
For one thing, Michael stated that upon removal of the leg bindings Kathy Wilson went
five to 10 feet; in fact, he said she went
five to ten feet at the most.
Herzog himself, in fact, testified that the earring was found
25 to 30 yards from the path. For the mathematically challenged, that is 75 to 90 feet.
(by the time of the evidentiary hearing he had gotten it down to
15 to 20 yards) (45-60 feet).
Also Michael never said she "bolted" - he said she "went".
In this statement Brown indicated that Buckley grabbed her by the arm and shook her a little. At Buckley's trial
Herzog stated that Michael had said Buckley caught her and there was "some kind of physical incident". (This was a rather curious choice of words, although there is a good reason for them - Herzog didn't want to call too much attention to the evolution of Mr. Brown's story regarding this matter - see the interview of 12-22-89).
This is the section of Mr. Browns statement dealing with this matter. Herzog's pertinent questions are in orange - Mr. Brown's critical responses are in red. Kathy Wilson wasn't the only one being "walked down the path" here. And just how do you suppose District Attorney Hernan knew Michael Brown was going to give them this piece of information that they "needed" - on this particular day? Of course, they didn't need it at all - OR EVEN THINK THAT THEY DID. Their own statement of probable cause shows that fact.
And of course, in arresting Michael Brown they totally ignore the fact that he is stating that he was under gunpoint during this period, and believed he would himself be killed by Buckley - a complete defense to his own actions. Likewise, there is the fact that Michael Brown is telling them this happened at night (midnight to 2 a.m. to be specific)
when they in fact knew better!.
Of course, Mr. Brown COULDN'T SEE ANYTHING (as far as police markers, etc) at the crime scene according to Trooper Herzog's testimony at "THE" hearing - except possibly one stake. And which, whatever it was, remains a secret because Michael's attorney at the time
didn't want to know. What is really interesting there, is WHY Bonavita didn't want to know. I sure would. I'd like to know if it said "earring" - or not.
The significance of this little curiosity is perhaps a little obscure, at first glance. But the reality, given the fact that Michael was not there, is that there are only two possiblities here - 1) that this marker did say "earring" and Michael picked up on it's significance, and immediately constructed this story that Kathy Wilson "went"; "took off"; "ran"; or "bolted" at this precise location - OR Troopers Herzog and Povlick told Michael about the earring, as well as explained it's significance, and it may be presumed, at least "suggested" this story about her "bolting to the right".
The idea that Michael would recognize the implications of the location of this earring, in relation to the other artifacts, even if he did see it (which, according to Herzog, he could not) is obviously rather implausible. But at least that possibilty exists - thanks to Bonavita's failure to ask this very simple question. At the same time, one could just imagine the implications with regard to Herzog's "probable cause", as well as some very red faces, if Herzog had been forced to concede that this one stake that Michael Could "possibly" read did, in fact, say "earring".
It should also be noted that Michael Brown claimed both in this statement and his statement of October 6 that he was under duress in performing these acts. A matter conveniently ignored by the authorities. As well as by Mr. Brown's "attorneys".
As in his previous statements of October 4, and October 6, 1989, Michael Brown is telling the authorities here that this crime occurred at night. The fact is that Herzog knew better at the time these statements were made. Herzog himself
testified to that fact at Buckley's trial.
Of course subsequent statements by Michael Brown changed to fit the irrefutable time frame of this crime.
It is also a rather serious omission that at no time in this statement does Michael Brown
have the tape removed from Kathy Wilson's mouth. Tape that in his
prior statement he indicated consisted of 100 yards of electrical tape.
Another interesting point is that at no time in these critical statements do Herzog or Povlick ever question Michael's claims of what Kathy Wilson's hands were bound with. Her wrist bone was in fact discovered with a piece of panty hose still tied around it. This fact is inconsistent with the statements by Michael Brown as far as the material used (Michael stated variously that Buckley's shirt, and twine were used to bind Mrs. Wilson's hands). Furthermore, it would seem Kathy Wilson was tied with her own pantyhose, naturally after her clothing had been removed, which is also entirely inconsistent with the story being told by Mr. Brown.
What seems to be their spin in this matter is that Troopers Herzog and Povlick ended up in the situation of having taken Michael Brown to the crime scene, where he "just blurted it out" that this is the place, he was here, and Kathy Wilson was alive. Uh huh.
I believe they would have had a very hard time convincing a (honest judge of that fact against a defense motion to suppress Mr. Brown's "excited utterence" at the crime scene on October 6, 1989 - and everything thereafter. Which of course was everything.
In other words - they had blown it, completely, right here - if not before. Of course these minor details were also completely overlooked by Michael's "defense attorneys".
This day's testimony ended with the conclusion of Barry Smith's cross-examination of Michael Brown on his statement of October 10, 1989, with a
total of 195 1/2 lies - to date, i.e., his first five statements - the ones both he and buckly were arrested on.
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Statement of October 10, 1989 |
819
.. .
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Q Let me show you Defendant's Exhibit Number 25 and ask you if that document looks familiar to you?
A I guess. I don't really know.
Q Another taped statement of yours and this one is dated 10/10/89; right?
A Yes, that's what the date is.
MR. SMITH: Move for the admission of Defendant's Exhibit 25.
820
MR. MASSA: No objection, but I would ask the Court to make it clear that thisis not a sworn affidavit, this is a transcript of the police interview and it's not in the form of an affidavit by this individual. No objection.MR. SMITH: I would agree that it's a taped statement, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Very well. Admitted.
Q Mr. Brown, let's go through this one page by page. Before we do that let me ask you this: On 9/29, 9/30, 10/4, 10/6, and now 10/10 why all these statements and in a matter of a week or a week and a half?
A I don't know.
Q You have no idea?
A I just kept telling them a little more and a little more.
Q A little more and a little more?
A As time went on, yeah.
Q So it would be wrong that you're working real hard trying to get the reward money during that period of time?
A Yes.
A And you didn't do any of this, not (sic) of this al all for reward?
A No, I didn't.
A If we see future statements where you're talking to the police about where is my reward money and asking them
821
questions about it and stuff, those would be lies because you never said those statements or what?A No, I'm not saying that, but like I said, if my motive was for reward money I would have done it long ago when the reward first came out.
Q If you knew where the body was?
A If I could go all the way back to it.
Q So the only thing preventing you from turning Jay Buckley in in 1988 was finding the body; is that correct?
A I couldn't get back out there, right.
Q Is that the only thing that prevented you from turning him in?
A Not the only thing.
Q What else was there?
A After I was talking to the cops for a while and an attorney from New York State told me if I couldn't remember exactly where this place was he says you're best bet would be just to keep shut up.
Q Wenn, on 9/29/89 you didn't follow that attorney's advice because you gave them a statement?
A That's correct.
Q Well, what made you cahnge your mind on 9/20/89?
A Who did I make that statement to on 9/29?
A (sic) Mr. Herzog. We have already went through that.
821
A Just 'cause they had located the body.A Just 'cause they had located a body; right?
A Yes.
Q So at that point whey (sic) they locate a body you're willing to start talking to the police; right?
A Well, I couldn't really talk to them before that, how am I supposed to tell them this and this and this happened. I didn't know here (sic) it was, that's why I told them it was nightime because I couldn't remember.
Q That's why you told them it was nightime because you couldn't get back out there?
A Yes.
Q You're telling them it's nightime after - - even after they took you out there?
A I don't remember. I don't know.
Q I am having a hard time following this and I don't want to beat it to death, Mr. Brown, but your attorney says don't say anything to him and you didn't say anything to him for a year because you're taking that advice, then they find the body and then all of a sudden you stop taking that advice and tell them everything you know or actually you tell them a bunch of lies for what purpose if it wasn't the reward money?
A To get this over with.
A Get it over with?
823
A It had been long enough, yeah. That's why I come back from North Carolina.That's why you come back from North Carolina. When did you come back from North Carolina?
A It would have been probably, I believe, the day they found the body.
Q The day they found the body?
A Yes.
Q When did you leave for North Carolina?
A I'd say a couple months before that.
Q You're only in North Carolina a couple months?
A Uh-huh.
Q Did you come back from North Carolina because you felt it was your civic duty to tell the police that Jay Buckley committed that crime?
A Between that and the checks and stuff, yes.
Q You were a civic minded person; right?
A I came back to turn my self in, yeah.
Q Turned yourself in and at that time you're not afraid that they're going to prosecute you?
A I had to take my chances, I just wanted to get it over with.
Q So at that time you're ignoring that attorney's advice?
A Yes.
824
Q You have another attorney in this case and he is going to enter the picture very shortly here by the name of John Aranyos?A Yes.
Q And he was the Warren County Public Defender; right?
A Yes.
Q You now have Tom Bonavita who is the Warren County Public Defender; right?
A Yes.
Q And you didn't switch attorneys out of any disagreement, you just swithched attorneys because the Public Defender's Office changed personnel; right, they got - -
A John Aranyos went in to his private practice, yes.
Q Right. You don't have any disagreement with the way Mr. Aranyos handled your case?
A I can't say as if I did, no.
Q Let's go to this statement, Mr. Brown. Would you read the first question?
A This is a taped - -
Q Let's skip over that in the interest of time because that just is a reminder of your rights to remain silent, you have the right to an attorney and all that and he asks you name and address and et cetera; right? And
825
then down midway through the page the question starts, "Michael, this time - -" start there."Michael, this time that were talking about the 18th of May, 1988, would you please start with that date and on that date your first contact with a subject by the name of Jay William Buckley and what type of contacts you had with him and then proceed on with the day’s actions and events with Jay Buckley. Yeah, it was approximately 7:30 in the morning on the 18th, Jay come to the house for coffee. I left for work at about a quarter to nine, I got to work, I worked all out the day, came home and Jay Buckley called me from the Foote Avenue Quality - -"
826
"- - he told me he was looking for work and he found work and that he heard (sic) somebody, he asked if I’d come pick him up. He stated he that he had walked from Lakewood to the Quality because he couldn’t get a hold of me in Lakewood and he wanted me to go and pick him up at the Foote Avenue Quality, which I told him I could not get the van and so he said all right and he started walking. He told me the reason he didn’t want to walk was because he had some stuff with him and he didn’t want to get picked up. He got to my house, I pulled out of the driveway, met him approximately 50 or 100 yards up the road from my house. I was on my way to the Quality Market for my mother and I picked up Jay and with him he had a bag which he placed in the back of the van behind the seat. I went to the end of Feta Place, I noticed a friend of mine, Tim
827
Welsh and Brian Willis. I drove across Main Street still on Feta Place, drove across Main Street picked them two up, went down Falconer Street and turned over and went to the Quality Market. I went in and purchased some spaghetti sauce and Jay purchased a 12-pack of beer, come back out, got into the van and pulled out. Brian Willis had some marijuana he wanted to sell two doobs."
828
" - - we pulled over kitty corner to the Falconer Fire Department where we sat and he lit up a doob, passed it around and then he smoked another one, which there was no purchase of it, because there wasn’t that good marijuana. He didn’t really get high off it and throughout this time that I picked them up Jay Buckley didn’t say nothing throughout the, you know, the whole time. I dropped Tim and Brian off at where I picked them up at on Feta Place--"
832
"I then went to my house, Jay go (sic) of the van, sat at the picnic table, I asked him he (sic) wanted to come in
833
the house, he said no he couldn’t come right then, no reasoning, he didn’t tell me why, he just said he couldn’t. I went in the house, gave my mother her spaghetti sauce, talked to her for a few minutes, she asked me why I was hanging around with him for still, and that was all we said in there. I went back out, messed around in the yard a little bit, sat down at the picnic table, Jay told - -""- - He got to her house, went up and got in the shower and there Jay, then Jay said he got out followed her
834
upstairs and up to her house. Took her purse off her table and then he left. And I mentioned to him I says you know you’re stupid and shit and then it was time to eat dinner. Right before I went in for dinner Jay had the bag that had clothes in it which were muddy, dirty clothes and he asked me if he could wash them.""- - he asked me if I could wash the clothes for him and I told him that I couldn’t that they were way too muddy to wash and so he told me he was going to take care of them and get rid of them. So I went in my house, I ate and offered Jay to come in and eat - -"
835
"I went and ate and came back out, Jay was there and we sat out there talking and then he asked me what coke was and what it would do, so I explained it to him and he wanted to get us some. Then I said yeah, I can get you some, we’ll have to wait ‘till we go in the house and I’ll make a phone call. And then after that he asked me if I knew a lady by the name of Kathy Wilson and I told him no. I told him I never heard of her and you know I never seen her and I asked him why was that the lady that, who he, who took her purse. (Sic) He says yeah, she is the one, I got into the car and I took her purse and then he told me that he had - - all right, okay, then we - - he asked me if I could give him a ride to his sister’s house on Falconer-Frewsburg, Falconer-Stillwater Road. I’m not sure which one - -"
835A
"I told him I couldn’t right then but I could later. So we went into the house after my parents went to bed, he went and showered because he was dirty and put on his clothes, came back out and then I called Shelly Anderson and she came down, she got a little bit of coke which Jay gave me $150 for it and then she left."
837
" - - she left, she was just there for about ten, fifteen minutes and she left and Jay asked me if I'd give him a ride to his sister's house now. So I said yeah, I went and got the keys to the van. I stole them from my father and went out and got in the van and started going towards his sister's house."Michael, what about flashlights? What else did you take when you left the house?
When we left my house there was a red and white flashlight next to the microwave which Jay picked up on the way out and we had a green mechanic flashlight with a leather sheath to it, case which are presently in the van already. And I noticed he picked up the flashlight and carried it out. I didn't question him about it, question him about it, you know, but and that's what we took with us when we left. All right and so we started towards his sister's house, I'd slowing down right across the road, I was on the opposite side of the road of his sister's house, started to slow down to turn in and he said keep going, he had to pick up some (inaudible) stuff."
845
" - - That’s when he told me we had to go to his sisters house for us to pick up his stuff. And so he - - I asked him where we were going and he said well just drive down to this - - to the end of this road and I’ll tell you how to get there from there. So about 10 minutes or so from the time we left from in front of his sister’s house we come up onto a - - excuse me, gravel pit which is located a short distance from Hidden Valley Campground and he said pull in here and I asked him what he had down there and he says well I just got to pick up my stuff, so we pulled
846
down into the gravel pit and I sat in the van and he jumped out and grabbed a blanket which I didn’t realize the blanket ‘til this time. He went over by the creek and between two hills dropped the blanket over, pulled it over a person which assumingly at that time I knew it was Kathy Wilson to me was because he asked me earlier that night if I knew a Kathy Wilson, and I just assumed must be he confiscated her I guess is all I can think of, but and then I watched him as he walked over and I seen him throw the blanket down. He come back to the van and asked me to get out and help him. I asked him what he needed and he says don’t worry about it, just come here and help. So I got out of the van, I walked over and I noticed a person laying down there tied up and so he says well help me pick her up and put her in the van. And then I told - - I asked Jay says Jay what are we doing. I say, you know, he says well, he says he wasn’t sure and I asked him, I says well what do you plan on doing and he wasn’t sure and I just asked him if he could just take me home and at that time he told me he has been doing this. I helped him pick her up and put her in the van, then he would take me home if I would let him use the van. So we agreed upon that, which I wanted to go home and there had been if I would have got home then I could have let somebody know and (Sic)
847
but as it was I started, we got her in, I picked up the feet side, he picked up the head side. I - - he jumped in the van with the head side, walked over toward the side of the van sat it down, picked up the feet and sit (sic) over. I got into the drivers side, Jay gave me the keys, which he took when he got out of the van, assuming that maybe I would leave once I’ve seen this or whatever, but he gave me the keys to the van, I started the van and I started driving and I told him I says Jay I want to go home and I went just a little bit further and he says you can’t go home and then he told me not - - he told me to stop which I stopped and he told me that he wanted to drive and I just told him I says well will you just bring me home and he said, he said again, he says no I won’t bring you home ‘cause then that’s why I believe he wanted to drive was for a couple of reasons, a) he thought maybe that I would you know, purposely wreck or something to where we’d get caught there b) I wouldn’t know exactly where, you know where we were going to. Anyway he started driving and he told me before we left when I was there, don’t worry she’s still alive. Okay. And at that time I had no way of really knowing at the time she was alive and I was trying to think of what I could do, you know, basically what commotion I could cause to where, you know, we’d get stopped, you know, or just have this end, but as it was he driving, he stopped
848
by like a little roadway into a field and we's (sic) and that's the only really place that I remember slowing at.
857
But once specifically you knew he was going to kill Kathy Wilson and you also figured that he might kill you also? Yes. So you’re now, you slowed down, he said this isn’t good enough. And I said, I asked him, I said this isn’t good enough for what? And at first he said don’t worry about it. We slowed down again and he told me he wanted to find a place to where we could stop.
859
We slowed down again and he told me he wanted to find a place to where we could stop and we got to an end of this road, I’m not sure what the road is called, I’ve never been on it before in my life except for this time. And he told me he was looking for a place to stop and he asked me if I knew where I was and I told him I had no idea and which I assumed he didn’t really know where he was either and he was acting like he was on some kind of a high. I guess from the experience I could say he was on a high much better than coke, than any drug. He was on a different kind of high, he was, he was like proud of himself and so we continued.
860
You don’t think the high was caused by drugs? No, you know, I’ve done coke and I didn’t know what the high is, and it just wasn’t the high you - - ‘cause he was high. So now you, which way do you turn when you come to the end of this road? When we come to the end of that road where we turned right. And we continued driving down there and then next thing I noticed was just a building, I noticed a brick building. I noticed a brick building out in the country - -
861
Did you eventually stop? Yes. Where did you stop? What type of road were you on? It was a dirt road. Any houses around? No, I don’t remember seeing house (sic) for quite a distance before we got this, (sic) this certain place.
862
What happened when the vehicle was stopped. When the vehicle was stopped I was sitting in the van yet. Jay jumped out, walked around, opened the sliding door and told me he said now you get out. He said I’m going to need your help (inaudible) and I just asked him well, what we were going to do.- - and he still, he told me he says I’m sure (sic) yet. He says just do as I say, so I jumped out, he said Larry (sic) now grab a hold of the feet and slid the feet out and he grabbed the other side, stood her up and he opened up the dr - - rider’s side door again, grabbed the flashlight and he went, then he grabbed the gun which was he used (sic) behind
863
us and he says all right now start going.
865
which flashlight did he grab? He grabbed the red and white flashlight, a plastic one.What about the other one, where did it - - did he grab that one also? That one was in the van on the - - like dash compartment and I didn’t watch him grab that one also, but when he came out of the woods he had it with him.
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Okay. So now she’s out of the van, Jay has a flashlight and you say he has a gun? Yes.
What happens now?
When he got out I was standing there, you know, not knowing really what was going on and he said, he says all right now start going and I, you know, I asked him where and he said just walk straight and when I turned around and asked him I knew that’s - - I noticed that he had his gun and at that time I assumed I was, I was, I was positive in my mind at that time that he was going to shoot both of us.
- - and maybe even myself, I don’t know that, but I just felt that, you know, this was my last straw. So I started thinking, you know, of how I could get out of this and I didn’t see no way because I knew if I ran for one I didn’t know where I was running to and number two he would have shot me before I got, you know, very far anyway, so I didn’t try nothing and so we continued walking and - -
What happened as you walked down the path? Did um - - did she ever have a rough time walking? Yeah. She, she was bound, tied up rather tightly to where she couldn’t walk too fast and we got in, I would say no more than 20 feet and Jay standing (sic) he says fuck you, something like we’re going too slow and so he decided to undo the binding which I assumed is like a motorcycle strap that he possibly stole to (inaudible) but it was a different color, it was just out of the same material.
871 How did he take this strap off? It was tied, it was like tied on, I noticed that he was down there mo - - budging with it, and was pulling it an then it just come off.
You know loosened right up and he just pulled it up and he handed it to me, I took it and threw it over my back and right at that time he said it’s going down. She started going one way and after she got loose then she went just a short distance I would say approximately five or ten feet and Jay, and at the time same (sic) I picked up the gun that Jay sat down, I picked it up and I was going to shoot Jay with it, you know to stop him, and when I pulled it up I aimed for his ass, you know, that’s where the gun was pointing. I didn’t really pay much attention, aim or (inaudible) I picked it up and was going to shoot and I pulled the trigger and the gun did not have a bullet in it.
What happened to Kathy, where did she go? She went approximately, like I said, five, ten feet at the most the right (sic) and she stopped and Jay went over to get and (sic) she just stopped. How do you know she stopped? I had the - - at this time I had the flashlight and when she took off I had the light and I looked over and as Jay started going, he, you know, he yelled once, he just said stop and when he
874 grabbed her the (sic) arm and just shook her a little bit and he did mention don’t try that again. And when I seen her she just kind of stopped ‘cause she was stopped before Jay grabbed a hold of her and I figured I feel that was an escape but yet she was probably thinking the same thing I was thinking is where is she going to go.
Did they walk straight back to the path? No, they didn’t. They walked out the side a little ways and then they come back over onto the path a short distance down and we stopped there and that’s where Jay cut her hands loose. |
876
And I had the gun strapped on my back and then when he cut her hands loose I noticed he had the knife on him, a knife, and he told me he says okay, he says I want you to take off, rip off her blouse and - - Who had the flashlight at that time? Right when he told me he wanted me to rip off her blouse I handed it right at that time - -
878
And when I started to unbutton it he took the flashlight and I looked at her, you know, I seen who she was which I recognized her as Kathy Wilson on the pictures - -
879
- - but I looked at her and I told her says, you know, I’m sorry about this but Jay says well just hurry up. So I started to unbutton her and he said it I believe twice just rip it - - And I just kept unbuttoning it, took it off, handed it to Jay and stood there, asked him what are you going to do now, you know.And he told me he says now I want you to take off her bra and which I did and he told me he says well, rip, rip her bra off and I - - it took me a few minutes or so, you know, to get it undone because I’m not too familiar with a lot of bras, you know, I mean I wasn’t exactly sure of what I was doing. And so I got that undone
881
- - at that time I seen him pull it and start, you know, I heard it rip right before he threw her down he took his flannel shirt off. He had a blue and like a three different shaded blue flannel shirt on and all three colors were rather dark and he took that off before he tossed her
882
down and, you know, he got on the back of her and started ripping her clothes. And at that time I turned away and, you know, just I didn’t want to see it. And I didn’t want to be there and so I turned away. I (sigh) then turned back around and she - - a few minutes later noticed Jay on the back of her looking like he was fucking her and which she was laying flat, so I assumed it was in the ass and (inaudible) then (sigh) I turned back around and I had the light shut off and I was debating on whether to run or not, which then again, you know I didn’t know where to run to. So I just walked back a little bit.
883
When you saw her lying on the ground, face down, she have all her clothes off? Yes, it appeared that she was - - She was nude? Yes.
884
How about Jay Buckley? Jay (sigh) you know, looked all right, I seen his belt was undone and it looked like his pants were unsnapped, but other than that he had his clothes on. How about his shirt, was it pulled up? His - - he had like a black muscle shirt on which was pulled up, it wasn’t a lot, real far, it was just kind of pulled up to, I say, beginning of his rib cage - -
888
And you say you saw him, he was having intercourse with this girl? Yeah. Could you tell that by
889
motion? What did - - how could you determine that he was in fact having sex with her? Just by the movement.
891
Did she say anything? Yeah, she just said like so she screamed, you know, when I first seen him get on the back of her and just a couple of seconds after that it looked like right when he started to fuck her she yelled and, you know, was crying, she wasn’t making the noise crying, she, you know, I noticed she was crying like (inaudible) and stuff, you know, she was upset and she just said not to hurt her, she’d do anything, she’d you know, just as long as we don’t hurt her. Then what happened? Okay after she - - Jay, you know, I notice like he was - - it looked he was having sex with her. I didn’t pay too much attention, I turned around (hiccough) excuse me, and I didn’t pay much attention, I was then kind of wondering what - - it was my turn next, you know, what he was going to do to me if he was going to, you know, try anything with me. I heard him then say you bitch. (inaudible) didn’t you, in fact, shine the light on him at one time and see him kind of move away from her and her start to crawl? Yeah, he started to get off her back and she started scuffling away.(Whereupon, Court recessed for lunch at 12:00 p.m.)
893
Where did he stab her? From what I seen it looked like he stabbed her right around in the bottom of - - like up towards the top part of her stomach.
896
All right. You’re seeing this, you’re standing there with a flashlight and you’re shining that flashlight on the two of them, they’re in the light? Yes, when I heard her scream the first time I just turned around real quick and lit the light on at that time I noticed Jay’s hand up in the air coming down with the knife in it.
897
Did you hear before she screamed, what did she say? Ah, was there, what did she say at that point? She said please don’t kill, please, and then she says I’ve got kids at home that need me very much, she says please I’ll do anything you want and she just let me go. (sic) I say (sic) nothing and I assumed, I’m not sure, just my assumptions, maybe that’s when she was trying to get away she might have kicked him and, you know, maybe she kicked him in the balls, bit him or something because when he yelled you bitch it just sounded like he was in a little bit of pain himself - -
900
Did she say at any time when she screamed before you shined the light on her, did you hear anything? All I heard her saying, she was just begging and for him to let her go and to not kill her. And when I heard her say please don’t stab me again and that’s right when her (sic) screamed, she just please - - she screamed quite loud and, you know, I - - right as I was turning around she says please don’t do it again, please don’t stab me again, I guess were her exact words.
901
When she was saying that’s the time that you were putting the light on her? (Sic) I (snap) turned right around and right there I seen Jays’ hand up in the air coming down with the knife - -and I didn’t
905
Now, you said he had both lights? At that point in time did he have both the flashlights or did he have just - - Just the green one. Who had the red and white one? I did, that’s how I got back up to the road. After that point in time when you saw Jay stab her, did you hear anything else from her? I just heard like - - I don’t know really how to explain it, it was almost like a gulp, but it was, it was louder than that, it sounded like on a country and western or cowboy and Indian when somebody gets stabbed (inaudible).But she didn’t say, she didn’t talk after that period of time? After I seen him come back out with (inaudible). So you went back to the van? I went back to the van and intentions (sic) - - all right, the keys, Jay had the keys, all right, so I knew there was nowhere I could really go so I just went, I just stood there by the van, I got in sat on the driver’s side.
906
I got back out and when I got back out I thought I heard someone call me and but it wasn’t the case, I didn’t see nobody. And so I just stood on the passenger’s side of the van on the side of the road and that’s when Jay come back.So Jay came back up, he was carrying a flashlight? Yes.
What clothes was he wearing at that point in time? At this time he didn’t have his shirt on, he had his
907
flannel shirt, he had his and he had the rest of his clothes on and he was just from his waist up, he didn’t have no clothes on and he was carrying a jacket and that was like rolled around. (Sic)
909
Did you two get into an argument? Yes. About what? I left, when I - - because the thing that started it was because I left and come up to the van, he just told me
910
he says you’re a fucking asshole, why did you take off?And then he hit me with a - - like, you know, a steel thing that might have been two inches wide and just maybe a sixteenth of inch thick or so - -
Where did he hit you? He hit me right up front of my face. Did you then get into the van? Right then I got into the van, at the time, you know, I was already upset
911
and stuff and I didn’t really want to, when he hit me I really didn’t feel, you know, I mean - - he tossed the stuff in the van right before we started scuffling and I jumped in the side door, went over sit to the drivers side and he shook the side door, the sliding door and come around and told me I wasn’t going to drive, he wanted to drive. So I then moved over into the passenger’s side, he got into the driver’s side with the keys, started it up and we left
912
During this time as you’re starting to leave, what did he say to you? He asked me if I was all right, he asked me what my problem was and if I’d ever done anything
913
like that before and I told him, I says no, and he told me it wasn’t big deal (sic). Really he says, you know, we got it, he says I just can't say nothing, he says as long as I don’t say nothing I’ll never get caught and if, you know, vice versa. But he told you it was no big deal? Uh-huh, like he made me feel like he did it all the time.
914
Actually like the high that I explained before he acted lie (sic) he was even maybe - - well, he was real quite (sic). I mean he didn’t say too much but what he did say he had like maybe like a happiness, you know, sort of it sounded like someone that’s so so, you know, happy when they’re trying to talk and it’s almost like a laugh when they’re talking. Okay, now you’re leaving, how did you leave? Where did you go? We went straight, straight down that same road - -
915
-- then all I remember coming across the little bridge, and then I - - the next thing I seen was the Washington, New York sign and that’s all I remember on the way home.
921
Where did you go when you got back? We went to my house. What did you do when you got to your house? When we got to my house I jumped out and started walking towards the house and he says hold on a minute and he grabbed - - he jumped out, grabbed his stuff that was in the back and stuck it in the cellar way.
922
Oh, back up one step, what did he put in the cellar way? He put a bag, he put a flashlight, the red and white flashlight down there which that is still down there and he know (sic) that was it.
923
He took everything of which I thought was everything except the blanket out and stuck it down there and he left the gun in the van which he took back to his camp.
924
Okay. Did he go in your house upstairs? No. Did you go in the house? Yes. What did you do when you went in the house? I didn’t go in the house then, I mean after I got back from (inaudible). All right. Then what else did you do? Got into the van, he wanted me to ride up to camp on Willard Street. I went up there and I stopped and he asked me if I was all right and I said yeah.- - and he told - - he says you’re not going to say nothing, are, (sic) and I told him no and, you know, not at all and he told that, you know, I was in as much trouble as basically as he was if we got caught, but he said that he’s been in too many other crimes, you know, and he’d being (sic) doing life and then gave me a shotgun shell which was full and I still got it - -
926
-- he told me that if I, if I did, you know, spill my guts, say anything, that he was going to kill me and he says but we ain’t got nothing to worry about as long as neither one of us say anything. And he asked me what I was going to do and I told him I’m just going to go home and try and go to bed and he says he had to go rid of that stuff, go up in the woods and find a place to stash it and so he got out and I went home.This second flashlight, you ever get that back
927
from him? Yes, Saturday he called me from his sister, Terry’s house and he asked me if I’d come pick him up, he wanted me to take him somewhere, he didn’t say exactly what, he said he just had to go take care of, I believe the rest of his business, which is what he called it. And so and with that we’d go and get some beers and stuff and so I told him, I says all right, I said I’ll be up in a little bit and he says try and make it in 15 minutes ‘cause I have to get this stuff taken care of and I told him I’d be up as soon as I could. I said I had to finish some things around the house and that I’d be right up, which I didn’t have nothing to finish up, I just thought that would give me enough time to go into the Jamestown Police Department and get wired and make it out there still in time. And do you - - did you go to the Jamestown Police Department you did get wired and you did go back out there, but again, through no fault of you own or anybody else Jay observed the police, the helicopter and never came down naturally and talked (inaudible) When did Jay give you this flashlight back? Okay, after that, after we got to his house, he was in the field, walking though the field and that’s just why I think maybe there’s some stuff bagged in the woods - -
929
Okay, After that, after we got to his house he was in the field, walking through the field and that's just why I think maybe there's some stuff bagged in the woods, at his sister's house maybe, 'cause that's where he seen me when he was coming across the field. He said he seen the cars (inaudible) and well, I drove around a little bit with the cops following me trying to find him, you know, going to some of the spots where he might be, which would be just walking 'cause as far I know he don't have nowhere else to go. And we stopped at Falconer Rod and Gun at the driveway and they took the wire off me and everything and I left from there. I drove up Falconer Street and I seen Jay, so I pulled into his sister's driveway and parked. No, I didn't. I parked on the other side of the road and (inaudible). All right. I parked on the driveway. I parked in the parkway and anyway I got out. Jay come out and he just told me he says I got to talk to you and I says I wanted to talk to you too, and I just wanted - - I just made it sound like the cops were looking for me and stuff. I just told him, I says man this is the fucking cops, you know, there all over Faul" F-A-U-L "you know, all over the place and he says, you know, I seen them, he says he was calling from my sister's, Terry's, and he says I was walking through the field and I seen the cops
930
and the helicopter and everything and he told me then he says you better not let them find out that, you know, you'd get wired up and coming to talk to me about it, he says because if they find out he says I'm going to kill you and that's when we was sitting in front of the Silver Dollar and I told him I says now wait a minute, I says get the fuck off me - -"
933
"- - like that I was just blowing him off, I just told him I says man the cops are following me around everywhere, I says everywhere I go I see there's cops, you know, which not all the time for the most place (inaudible) and just to keep cool. And he says all right, but you know, he says you know what's going to happen when I find out. Like I says yeah, yeah, this is boring (inaudible) you know I (sic) not going to say nothing and then on the way back he says oh, I got something of yours and he told me it was the flashlight, the green one and he went in and grabbed it and gave it to me."
934
"Where is the flashlight now? It's at my house. Where abouts? The last place I seen it was in the kitchen. Okay""But, um, he did mention that he had, he washed it. He said I had to wash it up a little bit, he needed it, he said I also - - I took it so I could see to get through the woods that nite 'cause he wouldn't have a light 'cause it was dark. He told you he washed it?"
935
"Did you have any other contact with Jay Buckley? Not after that, no. Going back a bit, he called you on the telephone and told you from Quality that he had hurt somebody? Yeah, he told me he was looking for work and, um, he hurt somebody. He told you he found work? Yeah. Did he tell you where he just came from? Yeah, he told me had (sic) come Lakewood (sic) which is where Chautauqua Mall is located.""At any time during the evening did you see any shoes that belonged to Kathy Wilson? No."
"At any time during the night did you see a blue bank bag? No."
936
Okay. You said you saw Jay Buckley get back in the van and he tried to start your van but he had the wrong set of keys? Yes, when we was at the um place where um we went into the woods um it looked like a Marlboro um key chain and he stuck them back in his pocket and took the other ones out, which were the ones that went to the van. Okay. You said you were going to ask me a question, what's the question? Um, I was just wondering was that a blue bank bag or could it have been like a greenish bank bag? That's possible."
937
"Okay, because I'm not sure, okay, but I am just saying I just thought about it. I got a friend, same friend that I bought the .22 that we burglarized, but um he's got a um b - - well, what, what bank was it from? Pennbank maybe? I don't - - Did it say Pennbank on it? I don't know. Because I notice he's got a bank bag, okay, and I just what I'm thiking is it's possible that he might have, you know, Mark might have found it."
938
"Who's Mark? Mark Kent, he's a good friend of
939
mine. Mark what? Kent. K-E-N-T? Yeah, but you know I just thought about that because he does have a bank bag. I don't know where he got the bank bag at. I mean as far as that, but I'm just - - that's I've (sic) seen the bank bag and I think it's possible, you know, if he could have just found it maybe Jay tossed it (inaudible), something, fallward, he found it because he does do a lot of hunting, he's on like (inaudible), you know, (inaudible)" I believe that means spelling. " - - a lot of hunting away."
943
1629 on 10/10/89."
963
(Whereupon, Court recessed at 3:04 p.m., May 10, 1991)(Mr. Smith's chalkboard count at 3:05 p. m., May 10, 1991 was 195 1/2.)
| Statement of October 10, 1989 |
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