| Preliminary Hearing Testimony |
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That's because they were hiding the Holiday Inn affair (Never Happened). So they had to hide where he supposedly recantated THAT. (See also The Tapes
This is also the first time Brown has Kathy Wilson in a
tan outfit.
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Preliminary Hearing Testimony - July 26 & 27, 1990 |
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Q. Let's go to page 151 of your preliminary hearing transcript, Mr. Brown, starting at Line 23, and the lines are marked on the sides of the thing where the page number is marked on the top. Question, as of May - - this is Mr. Massa asking you questions.
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MR. MASSA: Excuse me. I don't think he has the page.MR. SMITH: 151.
THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. Massa, I have that.
MR. MASSA: I'm sorry.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Mr. Massa asking you questions. And before this he asked you a bunch of biographical information, where you work, who lives with you. We don't need to go through that. As of May 18, 1988, how long had you known the defendant? What do you say?
A. A lot of this is going to be impossible to read. A lot of it is too light. See what I mean? A lot of that is real light (marking).
Q. You can't read that? Can you read that one (indicating)?
A. Yes, this is much better.
Q. What is the answer?
A. Approximately eight months.
Q. So does that fall in the wrong category or a lie category?
A. I don't honestly know how long I knew him before that day, so I'd say it's not a lie.
Q. Let's go to Page 153. This is Mr. Massa. Let's go to the bottom of Page 152. This is Mr. Massa still asking
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you questions, right?A. Yeah.
Q. And starting at Line 19, question, Michael, do you understand that you're present under a subpoena from the commonwealth of Pennsylvania; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Question, Line 23, question, are you willingly, freely and of your own will testifying at this time?
A. Yes.
Q. Top of next page, are you going to testify and answer my questions truthfully?
A. Yes.
Q. Question, as a matter of fact, have I given you any indication or instructions as to what your testimony should be?
A. The truth.
Q. Pardon?
A. The truth.
Q. Is that your intention at this time?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you understand you have taken an oath to tell the truth?
A. Yes.
Q. And if your testimony is short of the truth, you would be subject to a felony perjury charge filed by the
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commonwealth of Pennsylvania?A. Yes.
Q. So if there is any lies in here we are not going to count lies anymore, we are going to count perjuries, okay. The next question, do you recall the events of May 18, 1988?
A. Yes.
Q. As well as certain critical activities that transpired the next several days?
A. Yes.
Q. Michael, when did you first see the defendant on Wednesday, May 18?
A. Approximately 11:30.
Q. Okay. Then you correct that down below and say 7:30, right? I am going to skip stuff we don't need. You say your folks were working, your brother and sister lived at home, and you were getting ready for school.
A. I didn't say I was getting ready for school.
Q. I'm sorry. You were getting ready for work. Let's go to 155, Line 19. So mom and dad left the house first to go to work? What do you say?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Your brother and sister left the house to go to school?
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A. Yes.Q. That left who in the house?
A. Me and Jay.
Q. Did either of the two of you leave your folks' house? And you say yeah. I left out a couple lines. I skipped down. Yes, I left at quarter to 9:00 - -. I want to skip through this particular - - okay, let's go down to 22 on 157. Anything unusual take place in reference to the conversation between you and the defendant prior to your leaving for work?
A. He just asked if he could use the van.
Q. What was your answer?
A. No.
Q. Pardon?
A. No.
Q. Did the defendant have his own vehicle?
A. No.
Q. How come you don't say I want to use the van to do some work in quotes, meaning to go out and commit something?
A. They didn't ask. I guess I answered their questions.
Q. Do you know on Line 21, Page 158, next question, when did you next have contact with the defendant - - when did you next have contact of any kind with the defendant on May 18, 1988?
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A. Roughly 11:30.Q. That true or a lie?
A. That would be about correct.
Q. That's correct?
A. Roughly, yeah.
Q. And the question is, do you have a watch? Was it your habit to wear a watch? And you say what?
A. No.
Q. Then the question, skipping down below was, was your lunch hour a flexible one? And you say what?
A. Yes.
Q. That is, you could take off for lunch any time between 11:30 and 1:30?
A. Yes.
Q. And down at 22, do you remember whether or not you personally punched a time card when you reported for work?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. When you came to work in the morning you didn't punch in?
A. I did punch in.
Q. Did you punch your time card out that day?
A. No.
Q. Pardon?
A. No.
Q. When you state a time - - for example, you stated
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about 11:30. Is that an approximation on your part?A. Yes.
O. Again, I will ask your preliminarily, did you wear a watch at all on this particular date?
A. No.
Q. Were you watching particularly your watch? Were you noticing the specific times as the events unfolded?
A. I never wore a watch.
Q. But you received a telephone call from whom?
A. From Jay.
Q. From the defendant?
A. Yeah.
Q. What did he say to you?
A. He told me come pick him up.
Q. What was your response?
A. At 5:00 when I got done.
Q. At 5:00 when I got done? You say at 5:00 when you got done, and then the pardon, and you say at 5:00 when I got done. The next question do you know where he was calling from?
A. No.
Q. It's perjury, isn't it, Mr. Brown?
A. Not exactly.
Q. Not exactly. Do you know - - did you know on May 18, 1988, when Jay Buckley called you, do you know where he
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was calling from; yes or no?A. He just said he was at the Four Coins.
Q. You did not know where he was calling from?
A. It would have been impossible. I wasn't with him when he called.
Q. He just said he was at the Four Coins. The next question, he asked you pick him up?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you said you would at 5:00. At that time did you tell him - - did he tell you why he wanted you to pick him up?
A. No, he said if I knew what was good for me, I would pick him up and then told me where he was.
Q. What did you think he meant by that?
A. Hard telling.
Q. At any rate, what reaction did that statement have on you?
A. I left and went and got him.
Q. Where did you see the defendant?
A. In Falconer at the Four Coins lounge.
Q. Where is that located?
A. On Main Street, pretty close to my house.
Q. Is it west of the main intersection towards Jamestown?
A. Yes.
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Q. What happened at that time?A. I picked him up, and we went over towards the Quality to get some beer.
Q. Was the defendant on foot?
A. Yes.
Q. What type of vehicle were you driving? You go through and explain what type of van it was. You say there was two little windows on the passenger sides, two windows in the back doors, front doors - - I am not interest (sic) in that. Let's go to 163. What did he have with him? Line 11.
A. A 12-pack of Busch.
Q. Busch what?
A. Beer.
Q. What did you do next?
A. Drove out of the entrance and went towards the four corners in Falconer.
Q. Who owns the van you were driving at this time?
A. My dad.
Q. Was it unusual for you to drive the van to work?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. It's how I got to work.
Q. Okay. First of all, you pick him up there at four corners and you drive to Quality. You don't say anything about stakeouts or following Mrs. Wilson's van or anything
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like that?A. No, I don't Mr. Smith. May I - -
Q. Sure.
A. - - tell you something? Not necessarily pertaining to this statement, but it's something we went over yesterday. My mother's clock at work is ten minutes faster than my dad's clock.
Q. We subtracted the time. We knew that. We subtracted the ten minutes. Okay. So, Page 164, top, you picked up the defendant in front of the Four Coins Lounge and went to the Falconer Quality Market, and he purchased a 12-pack of beer?
A. Yes.
Q. You're driving?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you leave the Falconer Quality Market parking lot?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you go?
A. We went to the four corners in Falconer.
Q. Anything unusual happen at that time?
A. There was a blue van, which was Mrs. Wilson's van, which we followed.
Q. There you are saying you picked him up at the Four Coins, and you don't say anything about you picking him up,
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you drive to Quality, get a 12-pack of beer, go out of Quality and go back to Four Coins. That's what you said Monday and Tuesday that week, isn't it?A. We go back to the Four Coins? It's not written in my copy.
Q. It's not?
A. No, it isn't.
Q. Well, Line 8, Page 164. Did you leave the Falconer Quality Market parking lot?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you go?
A. We went to the four corners.
Q. Corners?
A. Right, in Falconer.
Q. What is that? What is the four corners in Falconer?
A. The same thing four corners is in Pennsylvania, just four corners where there is four corners.
Q. Keep going. Anything unusual happen at that time?
A. There was a blue van, which was Mrs. Wilson's van, which we followed.
Q. Why did you follow that particular van?
A. Jay told me to follow her.
Q. What specific words did he use to you?
A. "Follow that van." he claimed he seen her earlier
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in the afternoon.Q. This is a lie, isn't it, Mr. Brown?
A. Somewhat.
Q. You're claiming you pick him up at Four Coins, you go to Quality, leave Quality and go to four corners, and Mrs. Wilson's van is driving down the road, and Jay Buckley said to you "follow that van." He saw it earlier in the afternoon. I mean, that sounds like to me a total different story than what you told Monday or Tuesday, isn't it?
A. It is somewhat, yes.
Q. It is perjury, isn't it (marking)?
A. (No response.)
Q. Isn't it?
A. Oh, yeah. I didn't know if you wanted me to answer or not.
Q. Yes, I want you to answer.
A. I suppose that was false, yes.
Q. Perjury. Yeah. Did he make any reference to whether or not he believed that the occupant of that van or the driver of that van had money?
A. Yes.
Q. How did he indicate that to you?
A. We followed her up Steel street onto Sixth Street, and he mentioned that he seen her earlier and she had money. Excuse me. I said excuse me. I coughed.
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Q. You didn't follow her up to Steel Street onto Sixth Street, did you?A. No, sir.
Q. Perjury, right (marking)?
A. Yeah.
Q. Question, you were following instructions?
A. Yes.
Q. What reasons if any, did you have to follow the van which you now identify as Kathy Wilson's van?
A. Because I was told to.
Q. Pardon? You're on Line 9.
A. Just because I was told to.
Q. By - -
A. By Jay.
Q. When you refer to Jay, you're referring to the defendant Jay William Buckley?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's go down to Line 16. Where did the van go? Your answer is Line 18.
A. I see. There is a paragraph there. Which van.
Q. Kathy Wilson's van.
A. To the Chautauqua Mall.
Q. Perjury, right?
A. The van did wind up going to the Chautauqua Mall.
Q. Come on. You are saying you're following her van
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to the Chautauqua Mall, aren't you?A. That's what I told them previous.
Q. That's perjury, isn't it? (Marking.)
A. I guess, I don't know.
Q. What area of the mall parking lot did the van you were following stop?
A. Over by the Quality, the cinema side, cinema entrance.
Q. That's perjury, isn't it, Mr. Brown (marking)? Isn't it?
A. I suppose.
Q. Question, can you be more specific than that?
A. In front of Sears Service Center.
Q. Perjury, right? From the time you started following the van in downtown Falconer, did that van stay within your eyesight until that van stopped or was parked at the Chautauqua Mall?
A. Yes.
Q. Perjury, right?
A. Yeah, that is.
Q. What happened at the Chautauqua Mall parking lot?
A. The lady got out of the van and went into the mall. We sat there for a couple minutes.
Q. Perjury, right?
A. Yeah.
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Q. (Marking.) Let's do a little block off for perjury. Who sat there for a couple minutes?A. Jay and I.
Q. You were in the driver's seat?
A. Yeah.
Q. What did you do with with your van after Mrs. Wilson parked her van?
A. Pulled in next to her van, and then he told me to park closer, so I backed up and got a little bit closer and stopped.
Q. Do you recall on which side Kathy Wilson's van was in relation to your own? Was it on your driver's side or the passenger side?
A. On the passenger side.
Q. Pardon?
A. On the passenger side.
Q. Would you hold up your right hand and assume it's Kathy Wilson's van? Witness complies. Hold it like this. Assume your left hand is your dad's van you were driving. Show the Court how you parked your vehicle in respect to Kathy Wilson´s vehicle. It says, witness complies. What would have been the distance between the two vehicles from side to side?
A. I would say probably a foot.
Q. That's all perjury, right (marking)? Very close together?
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A. Yes.Q. Is that correct?
A. Yeah.
Q. Again, so there is no mistake, your passenger side was closest to Kathy Wilson's driver's side?
A. Yeah.
Q. Is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Perjury, right? And you saw Kathy Wilson get out of her van and enter the mall?
A. Yes.
Q. Perjury, right (marking)?
A. That is perjury there, yes.
Q. And at that point in time the defendant instructed you to park your car in close proximity to hers; is that what you are saying?
A. Yeah.
Q. Perjury. What transpired what took place?
A. After a couple minutes, we sat there, he got the keys out of the ignition of my van, unlocked the side door and got into her van.
Q. (Marking) perjury, right?
A. I suppose.
Q. Explain what you mean. He got the keys out of the ignition of your car?
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A. Yes.Q. And he got out of your van?
A. Yes.
Q. And unlocked what door?
A. Sliding door on the side.
Q. On the passenger side?
A. Passenger side.
Q. What type of door was it?
A. A sliding door.
Q. It didn't open outwards? It slid to open up; is that correct?
A. Nods head affirmatively.
Q. The defendant unlocked that van and slid it open all the way?
A. A crack.
Q. What did he do then?
A. Got into her van.
Q. Into Mrs. Wilson's van?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he do once he got into her van?
A. Got into the back of the van and sat behind the seat.
Q. What did you see next?
A. I seen Mrs. Wilson come out and get into her van.
Q. Do you recall what she was wearing?
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A. A tan dress suit.Q. Wow. You are telling nothing but lies for the last three pages, not lies, perjury, and now you got the tan dress suit, right? How come?
A. Most all of this stuff did happen but just not at the mall. That's the only - - but as far as this is, because I don't know.
Q. You just committed three pages of perjury, about 15 different counts?
A. Not exactly.
Q. And you all of sudden got her tan dress right? You are not lying any more about the tan dress. You're not committing perjury about the tan dress. How come you're committing perjury about everything else? You got the tan dress right. Why?
A. I didn't feel in most of this I was committing perjury.
Q. You didn't feel you were?
A. No, that's why I haven't agreed with most of the things you said was perjury.
Q. You haven't?
THE COURT: Mr. Smith, we are not going to bog down into argument.
MR. SMITH: I will move on.
BY MR. SMITH:
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Q. Whatever she was wearing, was it that (sic) matching?A. Yes.
Q. So you not only know what dress she is in, you know it's a matching outfit, right?
A. I had known that for a long time.
Q. Uh-huh. Question, what happened?
A. Jay come back from the - - Jay come from the back of the van. I noticed there was a sawed-off shotgun. He sat on her seat, the driver's seat of her van, and forced her into my van.
Q. He sat on the driver's seat of her van and forced her into my van. Perjury, right, Mr. Brown (marking)?
A. Yeah, that is.
Q. Yeah, but we got the dress right. Yes, let's - - let's backtrack a moment. When you first saw Mrs. Wilson, what was she doing?
A. Coming out of the mall.
Q. Perjury?
A. Is that a question?
Q. She was walking; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see her get into or enter her vehicle?
A. Yes.
Q. (Marking) on what side did she enter?
A. On the driver's side.
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Q. I thought you said your vehicles were very close together?A. They were.
Q. Was she able to get in?
A. Yes.
Q. Did she open up her door? Was she able to, for example, open up her door fully?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. We were too close.
Q. Perjury, right, Mr. Brown?
A. Yeah.
Q. (Marking) but she entered through her driver's door?
A. Yes.
Q. Did she sit down in the seat?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you recall happening next?
A. Jay got up and went in the front through the console and but (sic) her in my van - - and forced her into my van.
Q. At that time you are stating he was holding a what?
A. A sawed-off shotgun.
Q. And how did Mrs. Wilson and the defendant exit or get out of her van?
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A. The driver's side.Q. Where did they go?
A. Right into my van.
Q. Perjury. Through the - -
A. Side door.
Q. That he had opened?
A. Yes.
Q. At any time, Michael, were you ever in the van being driven by Kathy Wilson?
A. No.
Q. That day or any other day?
A. No.
Q. At any time did you see the defendant inside Kathy Wilson's van?
A. Just at the mall.
Q. Perjury, right, Mr. Brown?
A. Yeah.
Q. But he was inside that van at the mall; is that correct?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, he had forced her out of the van and into what area of your van?
A. Through the sliding door.
Q. Through the sliding door, but in what portion? Did he seat her in the front seats?
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A. No, in the back of the floor.Q. Pardon?
A. In the back on the floor.
Q. Then you're starting to describe your van, right? We don't need a description of your van. we have a picture of it. Let's go down to Line 14. Question, did he do anything to Mrs. Wilson's person at that time?
A. No.
Q. What did you do in response to that instruction?
A. He handed me (sic) keys back, and I started the van and started driving towards Sears Service Center and asked him where he wanted me to go, and he said he didn't care, just get the hell out of there.
Q. Perjury, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. What did you do?
A. I left.
Q. Where did you go?
A. I went down towards the golf place and hung a left and went to my house.
Q. (Marking). Perjury, right? Question, any particular reason why you went to your house?
A. He told me to go to my house.
Q. At what point in time did he tell you to go to
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your house?A. When I went up right by the golf shop and took a left-hand turn.
Q. Perjury, right? What was happening to Mrs. Wilson from the point in time you left the Chautauqua Mall to the time you got to your house?
A. She was getting tied up.
Q. With what?
A. A flannel shirt and some sort of twine.
Q. Perjury, right?
A. That's what she was tied up with.
Q. (Marking) Mr. Brown, she couldn't have been tied up with twine until you got to your house.
A. That's true. I am saying that is what she was tied up with. A lot of these things did actually happen but not necessarily in that sequence.
Q. What did you first observe the defendant do to Kathy Wilson?
A. First, put her in the van and he - - I seen him - - he was wearing the flannel shirt he used to tie her up with. He asked me if there was anything in the van like little consoles of the seat to use, and I told him no, and he found some twine. In the console there is a drawer that slides open.
Q. Did he find some twine in the console of your van?
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A. I got him the twine.Q. So that would be a lie, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Go ahead (marking).
A. There is a drawer that slides open, and he took his shirt and wrapped it around her hands and wrapped it across the board across the two seats, and then it says indicating.
Q. Tell the Court about the board. Let's not get into that. It's a description of a board. Okay, go to 175. How could you witness this type of thing taking place? Before that he is talking about tying her to these boards and stuff.
A. When we stopped, I seen he started tying her up.
Q. What did the defendant say to you relative to any other items he could use to tie up Mrs. Wilson?
A. Asked me if I knew if there was anything else he could use.
Q. What did you answer?
A. No, I don't think so.
Q. What did be do?
A. The glove box was like broken. The latch didn't latch. He pulled it open, and there was a spool of thick twine in there.
Q. Twine?
A. Nods head affirmatively.
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Q. What did the defendant do with that?A. He used it to tie around her legs.
Q. Is that true?
A. Well, around her ankles.
Q. Is that where you found the spool of twine?
A. That's what I found, a spool of twine.
Q. Is that where you found the spool of twine?
A. In the van, yes.
Q. Tied around her legs or lower ankles?
A. Yes.
Q. Down to 23. He not only tied her upper portion by her neck to the headboard he also tied her feet to the same headboard?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that true?
A. That is correct.
Q. So he has got her feet and head tied to the headboard right?
A. Her back was up against it. I guess she was tied to it, yeah.
Q. I always thought that you were describing Monday and Tuesday she is tied up like this to the headboard, and she is laid flat out lengthwise in the van. Now you are saying she is tied up to the board with hands tied and legs tied to this board?
194
A. I didn't describe that to the jury on Monday and Tuesday, Mr. Smith.Q. Now, you are saying she is tied up, right, hands and legs both on the board, right?
A. I believe that's the same thing I testified to Monday and Tuesday.
Q. We will see. Page 176, was her body facing forward or to the rear?
A. She was facing to the rear.
Q. Which portion of her body was closest to the carpeted board?
A. Her back.
Q. Was her head and hair in contact with that carpeted board?
A. Yes.
Q. So, now you go directly to your home; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened there?
A. He finished tying her up there. He asked me if I had anything to use to gag her with.
Q. Was any conversation taking place between, and strike that. Was Mrs. Wilson saying anything from the time she entered your van until the time you pulled up at your house?
195
A. She kept asking what he was going to do.Q. That's a lie, right (marking)?
A. Well, that's what - - we pulled in at my driveway, she was asking what he was going to do and not to hurt her.
Q. He asks, was it a normal conversation between she and the defendant?
A. No.
Q. What was she saying?
A. She kind of - - not really screaming but, you know, kept continuously asking him not to hurt her and asking what he was going to do.
Q. Was she emotional?
A. She was crying, yeah.
Q. Did she appear to be frightened?
A. Yeah.
Q. Alarmed?
A. Yeah.
Q. Unhappy?
A. Yeah.
Q. You get home then, and the defendant asks you for what?
A. For something to gag her with.
Q. All that there you're describing as to how the victim is reacting, every bit of it perjury, because you are not in the same vehicle on the way to your house whether
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Quality or Chautauqua Mall?A. That's correct.
Q. What did you do? Answer on 14.
A. I went to the shed, came back, told him there was nothing in there, and he told me to go down to the basement and grab the electrical tape out of his duffel bag.
Q. Is this the same duffel bag you stated he kept his tools in in the basement of your house?
A. Yeah.
Q. What did you come up with?
A. Black electrical tape.
Q. Did you give it to the defendant?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you observe what he did with it?
A. Yes.
O. What did he do with it?
A. He wrapped it the full way around her head.
Q. What do you mean full way?
A. All the way to the back and all the way around, indicating.
Q. Did he wrap the tape around her mouth area?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he wrap it behind her to the carpeted board?
A. No.
Q. Just around her head; is that correct?
197
A. Yes.Q. Anything else take place at your house?
A. No. He told me he was going to make a phone call, and I told him he could use the phone at the house.
Q. Did he, in fact, use the phone at the house?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. We have an answering service type deal that records all incoming and outgoing messages.
Q. And it says, did the defendant know that, and you say yes. And then he gets into talking about your employment at Bush Industries, your paycheck. We come to Page 180, Mr. Brown. After he is done talking about the telephone and your paycheck, he gets back on Line 14, so, he did not use the phone then? Line 15 is your answer.
A. No.
Q. What did he do, if anything?
A. He left.
Q. How did he leave?
A. With the ran. (sic)
Q. Where were you?
A. At the house.
Q. Where was Mrs. Wilson?
A. In the van.
Q. Perjury, right, Mr. Brown?
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A. Yeah.Q. Again, what portion of the van (marking)?
A. In the back, same place.
Q. Was she covered with anything?
A. No, not at this time, no.
Q. Other than a shotgun, did you see Mr. - - strike that. Let me rephrase the question, other than the sawed-off shotgun at the Chautauqua mall, did you see anything else in the defendant's hand?
A. A white blanket with red flowers on it.
Q. Red flowers on it. He says pardon, and you say what?
A. White blanket with red flowers on it.
Q. Where did that come from?
A. Her van.
Q. Where was that blanket?
A. It was in my van.
Q. That the truth or a lie there? That white blanket red flowers come from her van?
A. That's what I said. I don't really know where it had come from.
Q. That's what you say here, isn't it? Where did it come from, question on Line 10. Where did it come from? Answer, her van. Perjury, right?
A. I assumed it had to have come from her van because
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I hadn't seen it.Q. You didn't describe a white blanket, red flowers on it before. You described a white blanket, didn't you? I could be wrong, but I am not wrong about it coming from her van. You said her van and that's perjury, right (marking)? At the mall you saw Mr. Buckley loading a sawed- off shotgun?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was the blanket?
A. Draped around his arm.
Q. Covering the shotgun?
A. Yeah.
Q. At any time did you see the blanket in the rear of your folks' van?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it used for any purpose?
A. Yes, when she first come into my van, he put it around her.
Q. Truth or a lie?
A. He didn't put it around her, no.
Q. Perjury, right, Mr. Brown?
A. Yes.
Q. (Marking). So Buckley tells you he wants to make a phone call, doesn't use your folks' phone and he leaves?
A. Yes.
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| Preliminary Hearing Testimony |
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