| Statement of April 4, 1990 |
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Statement of April 4, 1990 (To Aranyos) |
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Q. I suppose.(Document marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 49.)
Q. Mr. Brown, I show you what I have marked for identification purposes as Defendant's Exhibit No. 49 and ask you what letterhead that is.
A. It's Office of Public Defender.
Q. Warren County?
A. Yes.
Q. People that represent you?
A. Yeah.
Q. Would you turn to the last page of what I just gave you.
THE COURT: What is the date?
MR. SMITH: April 4th, 1990.
THE WITNESS: What page?
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Last page of the document. Does your name appear at the end of the document?
A. Yeah, it does.
Q. Is that your signature?
A. Yeah, it is.
Q. Sworn and subscribed, true and correct, right?
A. Yep.
Q. Is this a document that you prepared for - - or you handwrote, and the public defender typed up in which you outlay
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the version of events that happened on May 18, 188, for your attorney?A. It wasn't only for my attorney but he wanted it done, yes.
Q. What did he want it done for?
A. I believe to give to - - to give to Mr. Massa or the cops or something. He wanted me to write one out so he could give it to them.
Q. To give to the district attorney or the cops. Are you sure of that?
A. He gave it to him, so I guess.
Q. He gave it to him, so I guess. Mr. Brown, would it surprise you to learn that this hearing was delayed 20 minutes this morning because your attorney was objecting to the introduction of this exhibit and claiming that he never gave it to the district attorney and that was just for use between you and him? client-attorney?
MR. MASSA: Your Honor, I would object to that line of questioning. I don't know how it has any relevance whatsoever. This individual admits it's his document. We went into that discussion in chambers on the record.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Answer the question.
A. What was the question. (sic)
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A. What was the question? Read it back to him.(Question read back by court reporter.)
Q. Would that suprise you?
A. No, it wouldn't.
Q. But you just said that the purpose of preparing this document was to outline your statement, and you knew when you did it it would be given to the cops or the district attorney right?
A. Not unless it was authorized by my consent that they would never get this.
Q. Isn't that what you just said when you prepared this document, that was the purpose of its preparation, wasn't it?
A. I said my lawyer wanted it prepared. He wanted me to write it out.
Q. You just said you knew it was going to the district attorney and the cops. Isn't that what you just said?
A. I assumed.
Q. You assumed?
A. But not without my - - not without my consent.
Q. Uh-huh. So when your attorney appeared in court this morning in chambers and says this was just a confidential thing between me and Michael Brown, and it wasn't supposed to go to the district attorney and I don't know how the defense
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got it, that doesn't jive with what you just said on the stand a little bit ago.A. It wasn't supposed to go to them without my consent, and I never consented they get a copy of it.
Q. And you just testified did you not, that it was your understanding that when you prepared this thing, that it would go to the district attorney and the cops. You are not committing perjury again, are your Mr. Brown?
A. With my consent it would have went there.
THE COURT: We have covered that point.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Let's go to the first page, Mr. Brown. First of all, the date is April 4, 1990, right?
A. Right.
Q. You said May 18, 1988, at approximately 7:00 a.m. I woke up and began getting ready for work. At approximately 8:00 a.m. Jay William Buckley arrived at my house on 266 Lister Avenue. Now we have been from 6:30 in the morning to 8:00 a.m. that Jay Buckley arrives at your house. That's an hour and a half difference. How come the difference in time when Jay arrives at your house?
A. Because I was giving them approximates.
Q. Just giving them approximates?
A. I don't know positively the exact time.
Q. Why don't you give me an approximate. Is this
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right? Truth or a lie? 8:00 a.m., is that the time Jay arrives?A. I'd say probably anywhere between 7:30, 8:00, somewhere in there.
Q. That's the truth?
A. As I recall, yeah.
Q. When you say 6:30 before in your statements, that's a little off, right?
A. It's possible.
Q. On 266 Lister Avenue in Falconer, New York. When he first got to my house he asked me if I was going go to work. I told him yes. He then asked me if I would let him use my father's blue 1983 Chivvy van. I asked him why he needed the van, and he told me he was going to look for "work." Is that true?
A. That's correct.
Q. I then told him I couldn't because if my father found out then I would lose all my driving privileges. Is that true?
A. That's correct.
Q. He told me that my father will never find out, and I told him I did not want to take any chances. He then got pissed off and said, some friend you are. Is that true or a lie?
A. That's correct.
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Q. He didn't get - - say, I will call Shelly Anderson. He said - - he got pissed off and said some friend you are. He didn't say anything about Shelly Anderson, did he?A. Not as of yet anyway, no, not in this statement.
Q. No. I don't see it anywhere in the whole statement?
A. It does say down at the bottom of the page he would make a few phone calls, but I don't think it specifically says - -
Q. But you're talking about something else then. You're talking about the van up here, and he doesn't say, well, I will call Shelly and get a ride from her. He says some friend you are. That's kind of different from your prior story, isn't it?
A. Not completely.
Q. No, not completely? Why didn't you tell them in this statement he then says I will call Shelly Anderson. This is the statement, this is Michael Brown's story, right, in detail, handwritten, spend a lot of time in jail working on it, sent it to the DA's office, or sent it to your attorney to send it to the district attorney's office, and you don't mention it.
A. As far as I am concerned, the DA was - - or whoever got a copy of this, I don't believe it was - - like I said, without my consent.
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Q. Without your consent? Without your consent after I mentioned - - I don't want to go into it, Mr. Brown. It's on the record what you said initially. I told him that I was sorry, and I would let him use it if it was mine. He then asked me what time I would get out of work. I told him that I should be home by 5:00 p.m. Is that true or not?A. That's correct.
Q. After that I finished getting ready for work, and it was about 8:45 a.m., so I told him I had to leave so I would make it to work on time. He asked me if he could stay at my house for a while so he could make a few phone calls and do some of his laundry. I did not really want him to stay, but I was scared to tell him no. Is that truth or a lie?
A. That's correct.
Q. This is a guy that stays at your house and does his laundry a lot there. He comes down periodically, right?
A. Once in a while he comes down. Quite often, actually.
Q. And this is a guy that you just told him, you are not going to use my van, my dad will get mad. I might lose my driving privileges, and he said some friend you are, and he says I want to make a few phone calls and do my laundry, and you're scared to tell him no? You just told him no you can't use the van and you're scared to tell him no, he can't make phone calls and do his laundry? You're not scared, are you?
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A. I explained up here why I couldn't let him use the van and someone might find out, and I would lose my driving privileges. Down here, as far as using the washing machine, I don't care if I lost the washing machine privileges.Q. You weren't scared to tell him no as far as phone calls and laundry, were you?
THE COURT: Mr. Smith, I am going to have to ask you to accelerate. We are starting to deteriorate. Once the point is made, you can move off it.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. So I told him he could as long as he was gone by 3:00 p.m., because that is what time my mom got home from work.
A. That was correct.
Q. That's correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You told him he had to be out of there before your mom got home, right?
A. Before my mom got home, yes.
Q. Anyway, at 8:50 a.m. I left my home to go to work at Amo Marine Products in Falconer, New York. I arrived there at 8:55 a.m. and shortly after that I began working. At approximately 12:10 p.m. I received a phone call from Jay Buckley. Is that true?
A. It was earlier than that.
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Q. If it was earlier than that, why do you say 12:10 here?A. It says approximately 12:10, approximately, not necessarily - - it doesn't have to mean that was definitely the time.
Q. The service manager or secretary came and told me I had a call and was wanted on the phone. Is that true?
A. That's correct.
Q. I asked him what he needed, and he told me to come and pick him up at the Chautauqua Mall immediately.
A. That's false.
Q. That would be a lie (marking). We are still at the Chautauqua Mall. And he would be waiting outside and was calling from Zayre's plaza in Lakewood. That's a lie?
A. False.
Q. (Harking.) He sounded nervous, but I only assumed he robbed someplace or something like that. True or false?
A. He did kind of sound different, I suppose.
Q. Let me ask you this. If this phone call happened why would he sound nervous? At that point in time he hasn't done anything.
A. I said he did sound different. I don't know what he sounded like.
Q. You are saying here he sounded nervous and stuff, because you're telling them in this story he already kidnapped
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Kathy Wilson. And now you are trying to say that's the truth, but if it was truth, and your story Monday and Tuesday was true, he wouldn't be nervous. He hadn't done anything yet when he called you.A. I don't believe this statement is telling that he already abducted Mrs. Wilson.
Q. Maybe it is not. We will see. But the question is, you say here, he sounded nervous, but I only assumed he robbed someplace or something like that, and if what you are saying is true - - let's go on. I don't want to pull a lie from you. I want to get honest lies. I told him that I would have to wait until 5:00 before I could pick him up. He told me if I know what is good for me, then I will be there within five minutes. Is that true?
A. He told me if I knew what was good for me to get my ass up there and pick him up. I don't know if he gave me a specific five-minute time period or not.
Q. He didn't tell you to get up to Chautauqua Mall and pick him up?
A. No, he told me to go to the Four Coins.
Q. I was scared of what he might do to me if I did not come pick him up. Is that true?
A. Yes, that's true.
Q. So here you are, scared of him again, right?
A. I guess.
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Q. And this is before you even know anything about Kathy Wilson, right?A. Yeah.
Q. So I left work at approximately 12:20. I did not even punch out my time card, 12:20, is that when you left work, 12:20 p.m.?
A. Before that.
Q. Why did you say 12:20? You're taking a lot of time writing up this statement, and you're putting down exact times. Why did you say 12:20?
A. Here again, we have that word approximately. I was just, you know, giving him approximations of, you know, so it doesn't mean it was definitely that time.
Q. I did not even punch out my time card. I just left and went directly to the Chautauqua Mall where he said he would be waiting. You don't say anything about Pete Sirianno or Darren Brayniller or having a conversation with them or telling them you were sick. Why not? How come? Why not in that statement?
A. I don't know.
Q. If it's true, what would be the harm in putting in it that statement and telling them, I told my boss I was sick and left? You don't say it at all here. How come?
A. I didn't tell them I drank a cup of coffee on the way to work either.
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Q. So it was insignificant. Even despite the fact that the police are asking you all those questions about who punched you out and the statements before, you felt it was too insignificant to put in there, right? Is that what you are telling this jury?A. Not exactly.
Q. I just left and went directly to the Chautauqua Mall where he said he would be waiting. He told me he was at the Zayre plaza in Lakewood which is right next to the Chautauqua Mall. Lie, right?
A. Right.
Q. Anyway, I pulled in the entrance of the Firestone garage which is in the mall parking lot. Lie, right? You didn't even pull in that entrance when you supposedly went up to wipe fingerprints, right?
A. That was the entrance I was explaining to them, yes.
Q. The Firestone garage, that's on the other side, the other street. It's not on the Lakewood street, is it?
A. The Firestone garage is where the JC Penney's garage used to be. I believe that's where the Firestone garage is.
Q. I will take your word for it. You're from Jamestown. I then drove all the way around the mall by Sears and Sears Service Center. That's a lie, right? You never
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drove all the way around the mall at any time May 18, '88?A. Yes, I did.
Q. Fingerprints or any other time?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Why would you drive all the way around the mall if you're going back up, taking Jay to wipe the fingerprints off? Didn't Jay know where the vehicle was?
A. I tried to explain to you before, like I offered to draw it on your board, either way, the way that we took to get up there, you can either take the roadway up and around the mall or go through the mall parking lot. Either way, you had to drive all the way to the other side of the mall.
Q. You couldn't go down this road, take a left and go in the other entranceway of the mall?
A. That's going to the mall two totally different ways.
Q. Oh, okay. I then noticed - - or excuse me. I then drove all the way around the mall by Sears and Sears Service Center. I then took a right-hand turn and started driving towards the Quality Market and the cinema. I then noticed Jay standing next to a blue Caravan. He flagged me down, and I stopped. He told me to pull next to that Caravan, so I did and parked facing in the opposite direction of the van. That's all a lie. He didn't flag you down to stop, and he wasn't standing next to the blue Caravan and all of that stuff.
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right?A. No, he didn't flag me down.
Q. He flagged me down - - or excuse me - - so I did and parked faced next - - in the opposite direction of the van and facing away from the Sears Service Center. Lie. I then asked him what he was doing, and he told me he had to get some things, and he would be right back and shut the engine and asked for the keys to open the side door to my van. That's all a lie, right?
A. Somewhat.
Q. I then noticed him getting into the van from the passenger side right after he unlocked the side door of my van. He stuck the keys in his pocket and got into the van. Lie, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. I assumed at this time that he was only going to take the radio out or something. Lie, right?
A. Yes.
Q. I had no idea he was going to do something like this. Anyway, when I first arrived at the mall, I notice Jay was wet and somewhat muddy. Lie, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. How many did he get there, four (marking)? I just figured it was from crossing the creek to get to Zayre - - lie - - where he called me from - - where he called me from. The
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same lie. I also notice that he had his sawed-off 12-gauge shotgun sitting next to the back passenger's side wheel. He picked the gun up right before he got into this blue Caravan. I sat there waiting for him for about five, ten minutes. I then told him I had to be back to work pretty soon so hurry up. He then told me he was almost done. All a lie, right? About three more (marking). All a lie, right? Detailed lie. About five minutes after that I noticed a woman getting into the same van Jay was in, I looked over and noticed Jay was hiding behind her seat. All of the sudden right after she got in the van, I seen Jay set up and pull his gun on her. Jay had a blanket (which was white and had flowers on it) draped over the gun. I thought his girlfriend was - - I thought the woman was his girlfriend, Joyce Wilson. (Marking.) He then made her exit from the driver's side door of her van after he climbed over the console and walk around the back of her van to get in the back of my van through the side door, and then he got in and told me to get him out of there. Lie. I asked him what was going on, and he said don't worry about it, just get me the hell out of here. Lie. He gave me the keys back. I started the van up and we left. Lie. I drove out by Sears Service Center and turned left going towards the golf course. At that time he was trying to tie her up with his shirt, dark blue and camel in color. Lie, right, Mr. Brown (marking)?
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A. Not exactly, no. A lot of the things you are saying lie, lie, lie to and all that stuff - -Q. Did he get out of her van? Did he kidnap her at the Chautauqua Mall? Did he get her out of her van? Did he force her into your van? Did be tell you get out of here? Did you drive out of Chautauqua Mall with Kathy Wilson in the back of your van? All of that is a lie, isn't it? And if Jay Buckley went to trial on April 4, 1990, this the (sic) lie you would have been telling the jury, isn't it?
A. No.
Q. No?
A. No.
Q. When we get to the preliminary hearing this afternoon, Mr. Brown, the story that you told the Court at that time, the one that bound Mr. Buckley over for trial in front of this jury, the reason why he is here today, this same lie, right?
A. This jury wasn't here in the preliminary hearing.
MR. SMITH: Does the Court want to break for lunch?
THE COURT: Step down, Mr. Brown. Court will recess until 1:15.
(Lunch recess taken.)
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Mr. Brown, before we went to lunch I got carried
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away and forgot to mark your last four lies. I am going to do that now. (Marking). We left off with the shirt, dark blue camel in color, and then you said in your statement here, I asked him where we were going, and he said for me to drive to my house. I asked him why he is doing this, and he told me he only wanted her money. All I seen at this time was her purse. That's a lie, right? I told him I could not believe this was happening and he told me if I would have let him use the van in the first place, I would not even be there. Did he tell you that?A. Can you tell me where exactly we are?
Q. Page 325, by my numbers. There is a little four by the police number. You got it, 325?
A. Four on this?
Q. Page 4 on that. So did he tell you if you would have let him use the van in the first place you would not have been there - - ever been there? That's about three quarters of the way down the page.
A. All right. What was your question?
Q. I told him that I did not believe this was happening and be told me that if I would have let him use the van in the first place, then I would not have been there.
A. He said that, yes.
Q. When I did get to the mall, Jay was wearing a stone washed jean jacket, a pair of bell bottom jeans, a pair
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of work boots, a blue baseball hat with an eagle on it. Jay was also wearing a dark colored muscle shirt with a blue flannel shirt over it. The woman which was Kathy Wilson had a black shirt (sic) on and a red blouse. Two (marking). One for the previous, one for this. You're still black skirt, red blouse. We haven't got to your (sic) preliminary hearing yet, and we are through 14, 15 statements, and you still got her dressed in something she wasn't dressed in. How come?A. I don't know.
Q. Then you - - this is all I remember about her appearance. I don't remember her wearing a coat or a sweater or color of your (sic) shoes, although I believe they were light in color. Here you don't say you remember her wearing a coat at all. Is that a lie or the truth?
A. That's a lie.
Q. Hum (marking). Why would you lie about something like that?
A. I don't know.
Q. Then you say, she did have a pair of glasses with plastic frames and color I don't remember. Is that a lie or the truth?
A. I think it's a lie.
Q. Were you trying to describe the glasses that you gave to the police back then, that pair of sunglasses?
A. No.
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Q. You just made that paragraph of glasses all up out of your head right?A. Yeah. I couldn't remember if she had glasses or not.
Q. Plastic frames and a color I don't remember. When she got into the van - - you are saying she had them on when she got into the van. As we left the mall parking lot she was saying let me go. It's a lie, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. She was also crying and asking Jay not to hurt her. That's a lie, right? Jay then took his flannel shirt off and tied it around her mouth (marking). That's a lie, too, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. No electrical tape there. Flannel shirt tied around her mouth. That's the first time we heard that one. How come you told that lie?
A. See, could I explain something to you about this whole statement?
Q. Sure.
A. All right. Thank you. See, most all this statement, the parts in it that basically isn't correct is just the fact that it was at the Chautauqua Mall, and most all of this I - - most all of it - - not all of it, most all of it had actually occurred, but see I just worked around the place
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that it had actually occurred at.Q. So that was the only lie, the Chautauqua Mall? See this chalkboard? I gave you one for the Chautauqua Mall, and the whole other rest of that row is for the other lies, and you said you told a lie about the glasses. That don't have anything to do with the Chautauqua Mall. You told a lie about the shirt being wrapped around her mouth. That doesn't have anything to do with the Chautauqua Mall.
A. The shirt, he did tie a shirt around her wrists, and it did go around her head.
Q. Are you saying that is a true statement where you say Jay took his flannel shirt off and tied it around her mouth and around a board that was attached to the seats in my van? Tied around her mouth and around a board that was attached to the seats of my van. She never had a shirt tied around her mouth, did she, in any of your prior statements? Monday and Tuesday you didn't say she had a shirt tied around her mouth then?
A. It wasn't around her mouth but around her wrists and around her head to tie her to the board.
Q. You don't say tied around her mouth. Let's move on, Mr. Brown. He kept telling me to take back roads and to go slow so we did not get pulled over. He didn't tell you that because you didn't take her at Chautauqua Mall. You are saying you took her at Quality?
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A. When we left my house to go out, he said to take the back roads and stuff.Q. We won't mark it. Anyway, that was the only conversation we had until we got to my house. When we got to my house Jay told me to run in the shed and find something so be could tie her up and gag her. I could not find nothing, so Jay said he would use his clothes to tie her up, but he needed something to gag her with. He told me to run down into my basement and grab his electrical tape. I went down and got it for him, and he tied her up with some baling twine of my father's which had been in the van and wrapped the tape all around her mouth and slid the blue and camel shirt around her neck, and she remained tied to the seat, and then he told me he was going to run over to the store, and he would be right back. Was she tied to the seat, or what is she tied to?
A. When we left she was tied to the board that ran behind the seat.
Q. It says seat here, right? You also have her tied up with these clothes, right, as well as the twine?
A. She was tied up with a blue - - I don't know where they got the camel at - - with a blue flannel shirt, excuse me.
Q. I just let him go because I did not want him to shoot me or hurt me. Is that true?
A. Yes, that's true.
Q. And you were afraid he was going to shoot you and
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hurt you at the time you were at the house, but you never called the police when he left and Kathy Wilson is in your basement?A. I figured as long as I did what he said, I would be all right.
Q. So when he left I went into into my house. Once I got into my house I set down at the kitchen table and thought about what I could do to get out of having to go with Jay. I wanted to call my mother or my dad to tell them what was happening, but then I decided not to call them because I was afraid Jay would come back to my house before they got home, and Jay told me to stay in the house and to wait for him to get back. He told me right before he left if I said anything to anybody while he was gone, then I would regret it. So I set at my house, and then the phone rang, and I believe it was Hill's Department Store calling for my mom or sister. It had something to do with a layaway. I then noticed a guy who I used to work with at Jamestown Sterling, so I went over to where he was inside his red van right in the area of my backyard and asked him for some rolling papers. I was going to ask him to take me to my sister's house so I could get away, but I figured Jay would come find me, so I just asked him for some rolling papers, and he gave me some. Then I went back to my house. We got to my house from the mall at about 1:00. Jay left my house with the van and Mrs. Wilson at about
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1:30. You don't say approximately there, do you? You say at about 1:00, at about 1:30, right?A. That's what it says.
Q. After I walked back to my house from getting those rolling papers, I sat in the backyard and waited for Jay. He came back in about 15 minutes with some Busch beer that he got from the Quality Market in Falconer. You are saying here it took him 15 minutes. You said two hours another time, right? Right after he left my house the first time he came back with the beer about 15 minutes after he left. The first time when he got back to my house he gave me a couple beers and told me he would be back if he needed me. I figured he was just checking up on me to make sure I was still there. I did not see or check to see at that time if Mrs. Wilson was still in the van. (Marking). When he left the second time I went back to my house and waited for him. At approximately 2:45 p.m. he made it back to my house. Is that correct, approximately 2:45 P.M.?
A. Sometime later in the afternoon, yeah.
Q. Why did you make that earlier that he got back to your house?
A. I am saying sometime later in the afternoon, it was later in the afternoon.
Q. Okay. When he got there he beeped the horn. Wrong, right?
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A. When?Q. When he pulled into your driveway he beeped the horn?
A. I think so, but I don't remember.
Q. And I did not go out. That's a lie?
A. I didn't go out right away, no.
Q. When I seen him getting out of the van, I went out. At that time I noticed he had taken a shower and changed his clothes. We got into the van and left. Jay was wearing only jeans and a white or light colored muscle shirt with his jacket and other things including his blue ball cap to the best of my recollection. Was he wearing a light colored muscle shirt and was he wearing a blue ball cap?
A. It was a light colored shirt. It wasn't a muscle shirt. It was a light colored shirt.
Q. Was he wearing his ball cap?
A. When he came back to my house after he came back, I guess, whenever he went.
Q. That's right, because you didn't mention the ball cap any other place, do you (marking)? At that time Mrs. Wilson was still tied up in the van. She had been moved from behind the passenger seat over to the driver's side. Hum. (Marking). That would be a lie, right? Why do you have her tied up in the passenger seat and then move over to the driver's seat, and you don't say anything here about this
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board that she is tied to when he comes back? Number one, she wasn't even in there until later, but here you got her sitting in the seat tied to the seats, don't you? Jay had the white blanket with flowers over her. Another lie, right, Mr. Brown (marking)?A. Yeah.
Q. Can't think of why you said that one, can you?
A. No.
Q. I asked him what took him so long, and he told me he had to clean up and make a phone call. Then we left my house, and he told me to drive until we got out of town. So I drove until we got past the golf cart place and the concrete place, which was way up North Work Street going out of town towards Frewsburg. We stopped going out of town up by the sewage plant, and Jay told me that he wanted me to turn left. I asked him where we were going, and he told me he wanted to check on something. He did not tell me what he wanted to check on. Then I asked him - - I asked him who he had to call when he left, and he told me someone I don't know. Is that true?
A. Pretty much, yes.
Q. You mean when he left Kathy Wilson in the basement of your house and comes back two hours later and you're in your van without Kathy Wilson he asked - - he told you he had to leave to call someone you don't know?
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A. Well, when I asked him, you know, who he had called and stuff, he told - - he referred to him as his buddy. And he did mention that, really not to worry about it, it was nobody.Q. I told him he could have used the phone at my house, but he said he would of but he did not want to take the chance of his conversation being recorded. Is that true or a lie?
A. He said that when he left, right before he left.
Q. That's the problem here, isn't it, because you said before that that conversation took place when he went to Quality to get the beer. Now you are saying that conversation took place when he came back two hours later, right? (Marking.)
A. I guess that's what it says here, right.
Q. Yes, that's what it says there. He then got into the back of the van to check on Mrs. Wilson to make sure she was still tied up. You got her from the seats to the back of the van. Jay had been sitting in the passenger seat. He grabbed two beers and came back up and set down. I asked him what he was going to do, and he told me he was not sure. I asked him if he could please let me go home. I promised him that I would not say a word to anybody. Is that truth or a lie?
A. That's pretty much true.
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Q. That's all true. You're begging him at this point?A. I was asking him, why don't you let me go home, I won't saying (sic) nothing and stuff.
Q. Why did you just not go with him?
A. I couldn't.
Q. He then told me if this person was home he would not need the van, and he would let me go home. While we were stopped at the sewage plant and after Jay told me that if this person was home, I could go home. I then asked him who this person was again, and he asked me if it mattered, and I told him no, but I was just wondering. From the time we left the sewage plant Jay drove. We did not really talk too much. I was scared and did not have anything to ask him. I figured if I asked too many questions then Jay would get upset, and he would not let me go home. You testified Monday and Tuesday the first time you got scared is when you saw him kill Kathy Wilson. Here you're scared to death before you ever hit Pennsylvania, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Hum. We drove for half an hour or so, and then we came to a house out in the country which was like a big cabin. It was approximately 50 to a hundred yards from the road with a garage underneath the house. Anyway, when we got there Jay told me to stay in the van. He then got out and took the keys
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and went up to the house and went into the garage. You are saying he took the keys, went out of the van and went into the garage, right, in the side door, the garage. Truth or a lie?A. This is the truth. He did go up around the side first and come back down to the van and wrote a little note and went into the garage.
Q. He didn't take the keys and go into the garage?
A. He took the keys, got out of the van and went up around the side of the house and went to the garage to leave a note.
Q. He left a note on the garage, right?
A. Inside.
Q. Then you say, Mr. Brown, he was there for about ten minutes or so. Then he came back out, got a piece of paper and a pencil and wrote a letter and stuck it in the side door and we left. That is different than what you just said, isn't it?
A. Yes, a little bit.
Q. A little bit. You have got him sticking a note on the garage door. What you just said in this statement here you got him sticking it on the side door.
A. I never said he stuck it on the garage door. Will you read it back?
(Question read back by court reporter.)
A. She just read it back, yes, and she read back that
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I said I stuck it in the garage.Q. In the garage?
A. She said that's what I said.
Q. Here it says stuck it on the side door. We saw on that map of the Ed Foster house, you have to go up around the hill to the side door. There's a big difference between the side door and the garage of Ed Foster's house, isn't there?
A. Yes.
Q. One of them has got to be a lie, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. (Marking). You don't have any idea why you told that lie?
A. I don't know.
Q. Hum. I didn't see anyone there and don't know whose house it was. That's a lie, too. You knew it was Ed Foster's house?
A. Not at the time I didn't, no.
Q. At this time, April 4, 1990, you're already in jail. You covered that ground yesterday. It's a lie, Mr. Brown. I think this house is owned by someone with the last name of Foster lives there or was living there, Then after we left, the only thing I remember was came (sic) down Sprague Hill and went back towards Jay's sister Teri's house. On the way to Jay's sister Teri's house I asked Jay if the people were home, and he said no. He told me he would not be able to take me
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home right away. I then asked where we were going, and he told me that he wanted to go out to his sister Terri's (sic) house. When we go out by his sister Teri's house, he did not turn into her driveway. Instead he turned up on the Carlsberg road which runs right up side of her house. We drive one mile an hour past Terri's. Then Jay said we can't stop there because his sister was home. We went down Carlsberg Road about a hundred yards and turned into a little pathway which led to a shack. We set there for about 20 minutes or so. Did you turn into a pathway that led to a shack?A. Yes.
Q. You did?
A. Yeah.
Q. You sit there for 20 minutes or so?
A. No.
Q. How come you said 20 minutes here?
A. I said for about 20 minutes. It was just a short time. I don't know.
Q. And then you say the time was approximately 3:45 p.m. right?
A. That's what it says.
Q. That's what it says. And not only does it say that, Mr. Brown, but what is above it?
A. My initials.
Q. Your initials, because initially it was typed
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wrong, and the 'three' was written in, and you initialed that proving the three, didn't you?A. Yes, I did.
Q. 3:45 p.m., you're at the gravel pit on Carlsberg Road? Guess what, Mr. Brown? That purse is on Akeley Road at 2:30. Your story doesn't go nowhere, does it?
MR. MASSA: I object. That assumes a piece of evidence that is not into the record. I place an objection on the record, Your Honor.
MR. SMITH: I will withdraw it, Your Honor.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. But 3:45, are you saying you're there at 3:45? You're agreeing with that statement? It's not a lie, right?
A. I just wrote in this statement approximately.
Q. You changed it, right, the three and initialed it?
A. Obviously. You just said they obviously misprinted it.
Q. There was a typo, you initialed it and approved the change, 3:45 p.m., you were at Carlsberg Road. Then you would agree with me, would you not, if you go from Carlsberg Road across Kiantone by a firehouse back onto 62 down to Akeley, you got to add another ten or 15 minutes to that, right?
A. Correct.
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Not even counting what time you sat there at Carlsberg Road and drank and et cetera. Then you say, we set there and drank a beer and talked a little. I asked Jay what he was going to do with Mrs. Wilson, and he told me he was going to drop her off somewhere and leave her. I then felt real relieved that he was not planning on hurting her. We then backed out of this path and went across the road and drove down the roadway which went down into a cornfield. Knee high by the 4th of July, Mr. Brown. He told me on the way down that he was going to leave her there. After we got parked he said that he could not leave her there. Be said he could not shit in his own backyard. He told me this place would be too close to home. We had a bottle of Kessler's or Southern Comfort or rum which Jay brought back when he returned to my house. You're trying to cover all your bases there?A. No, I am not.
Q. You are not?
A. No, I am not.
Q. So you don't remember what you were drinking that day, right?
A. I told them, like in the supplement report I wasn't sure it was Southern Comfort but I wasn't positive.
Q. You're real positive when Mr. Tridico found that bottle of Southern Comfort. You said that's the one. You
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knew that bottle was there, didn't you?A. No, I didn't.
Q. We had a bottle of Kessler's or Southern Comfort or rum. You don't remember what you were drinking? Hum.
A. Hum.
Q. When he returned to my house a second time probably from his sister's house where I last seen it. I don't remember exactly what kind it was, but anyway, we tossed it out where we parked in the field. We threw out a couple Busch beer cans after we had finished there, and then he told me he had a good place where we could drop Mrs. Wilson off at. On the way out of the field Jay was driving, and he got the van stuck on the way out. He then got out and pushed. I was in the van driving. Is that true?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. When we got unstuck, he jumped into the passenger side of the van and told me to drive. So I drove. I asked him where we were going, and he told me that he would show me how to get there but he did not want to get seen driving because then he would get pulled over. Now you're in Pennsylvania, you're on Carlsberg Road, and guess what, Pennsylvania doesn't know Jay Buckley but Falconer does, but you have him driving around Falconer, no problem, and here he is worried about getting pulled over in Pennsylvania? Hum.
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A. Carlsberg Road is not in Pennsylvania.Q. Well, it's not the main drag of Falconer, and it's not Gerry, New York and - -
A. It's right in Falconer, yes.
Q. It's back woods area, Carlsberg Road, right?
A. It's definitely not in Pennsylvania.
Q. And if he is worried about getting pulled over there, why is he not worried about getting pulled over in the rest of the adventure that day supposedly?
A. When I was with him most of them were back roads.
Q. Did he say he was worried about getting pulled over?
A. He had mentioned he didn't want to get pulled over.
Q. Did he say that at that time and you are saying you drove out, got unstuck, he wanted you to drive? Did he say I am afraid because I might get pulled over?
A. No, I don't believe so. That's why he told me he wanted me to drive.
Q. So that's a lie (marking). You just didn't decide it was a lie after I said it didn't make much sense? You knew it was a lie before that?
A. He had said that but not that particular time.
Q. He was starting to get drunk also, and that was another reason he did not want to drive. Is that true? He is
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starting to get drunk and that's another reason he didn't want to drive?A. Not exactly.
Q. That's a lie, too?
A. Yeah.
Q. (Marking.) It didn't make a lot of sense, Jay Buckley is worried about driver's license and drunk driving when he has got murder and kidnap on his mind. Anyway, we went into Kiantone by the fire hall, and we went straight through the intersection, and then we came out onto Route 62. He told me to turn right and I did. He then got into the back of the van to make sure Mrs. Wilson was still tied up. I continued to drive down 62 towards Warren while Jay was in the back of the van. He was going through her purse, and that's when I first noticed the money bag next to her purse. Is that true or a lie?
A. That's not the first time I noticed it.
Q. So that would be a lie?
A. Yeah.
Q. It was a greenish blue in color with white lettering on it. Was it greenish blue in color? It wasn't greenish blue in color, was it?
A. Yes, it was, like a blue.
(Items marked Defendant's exhibit Nos. 51 and 52.)
Q. Mr. Brown I will show you Defendant's Exhibits 51
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and 52. What color is the one you saw in the back of that van that was greenish blue (indicating)?A. I will have to - -
Q. Can't see that far (indicating)?
A. I don't believe - - it's really closer to that. I don't remember it being that dark like that (indicating).
Q. Don't like either one?
A. I don't believe it was as dark as either one of them.
Q. What kind of lettering did it have on it?
A. Just lettering. I don't even remember what it said.
Q. Both Marine Bank. They don't have a greenish blue one (marking). What do you think of that?
MR. SMITH: Move for admission of Defendant's 51 and Defendant's 52, Your Honor.
MR. MASSA: I object on the grounds that it's not - - there is no foundation laid as to the date of those envelopes, the genesis of those envelopes.
THE COURT: What envelopes are you talking about? The bags?
MR. MASSA: Excuse me, Your Honor. Those exhibits.
THE COURT: Where did they come from? How did they get into this courtroom?
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MR. MASSA: No idea.MR. SMITH: Marine Midland Bank.
THE COURT: Who brought them to court?
MR. SMITH: We got them from Marine Bank. I will put them in in my private investigator's testimony.
THE COURT: Court will defer on them.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Then you say Jay was going through both the purse and the money bag and mentioned "is this all there is," directed at Mrs. Wilson. Is that true, he asked her 'is this all there is'?
A. I don't know if he necessarily directed it to Mrs. Wilson, but he did say 'is this all there is' at that time.
Q. This is a modification of the previous couple-hundred-dollars story. The police haven't told you by the (sic) time, hey, there is no - -
A. I said this in previous statements and we read them.
Q. I saw him hit her once in the head before he even looked in the bags because she was struggling. True or false?
A. I didn't see him hit her, no.
Q. Right. Totally lie. (Marking.) Why would you tell that lie?
A. I don't know.
Q. Hum. Didn't tell that lie to convict Jay Buckley
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of this crime, did you?A. No.
Q. Well, let me read that again. I saw him hit her once in the head before he even looked in the bags because she was struggling while he was checking to see was she tied up good. Not true, right?
A. I didn't see her struggling, no.
Q. You didn't see her get hit in the head neither, did you?
A. I already told you that.
Q. Jay then got up on his knees while still in the back of van and told me we missed our turn. So I turned down this road to turn around. Jay told me to go across the bridge and turn around so we would not attract any attention. Now we know we are supposed to go across the bridge because we covered that previously.
I noticed a lady walking her dog down a side road coming towards the bridge. We drive down to the end of the road or intersection and turned around. On the way back up the road Jay told me to slow down. He opened the door and threw Mrs. Wilson's purse out of the van near the intersection of 62. Then he told me to turn right and go back the way he came. Hum. Then he told me to turn right and go back the way he came. Is that true or false, Mr. Brown? Did he tell you that?
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A. He did tell me to turn right.Q. Did he tell you that at that point in time?
A. When we got to the intersection but that's just a little mixed around a little bit is all.
Q. It's mixed around because the purse is found further up the road. You already made your turn by the time the purse is thrown out?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. So that has got to be wrong. We will mark that one up too (marking). He threw her purse out at the Akeley turn off near the intersection of 62. We drove down the road about a mile, and then he told me to turn left, and I did. We went across on a little bridge and went up a hill and kept driving. We went straight for quite a ways. Then the next thing I remember is going past a brick building which is the school. We then took a left off that road and went up about a mile or so and we stopped. Jay told me to stop there. Is that true?
A. That's correct.
Q. You go on and say, I am sure that this road is Lindell Road. Okay. You're describing the same route that you have taken with the police now two or three times, right? When we stopped Jay got out and told me to get out and help him get Mrs. Wilson out of the van. Her hands were tied with the twine behind her back, and her feet and legs tied with the
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blue shirt which had been around her neck. True or a lie?A. That's false.
Q. That's false. That's a lie (marking), yeah. How were her hands tied again, Mr. Brown? Tell me one more time.
A. Flannel shirt in front of her.
Q. Flannel shirt in front of her, right (marking)?
A. Yeah.
Q. Just a moment, Mr. Brown, I will tell you what. I will find it at break, okay? That's not what you said Monday and Tuesday, is it?
A. (No response.)
Q. Her feet and legs tied with the blue shirt which had been around her neck. Her hands tied with the twine behind her back. You're wrong on both those counts, right (marking)? Neither one of them is right. I got out of the van and went around to the side door. Jay opened the door and got into the back of the van. Did you get out of the van and went around to the side door?
A. Yeah, I did.
Q. Jay opened the door and got into the back of the van and reached through the console and locked the door and took the keys out of the van. Is that true?
A. He was in the back of the van, but he did reach up through the console and took the keys out of the ignition and stuff, he rolled up the window and locked the door.
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| Statement of April 4, 1990 |
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