| Report/Statement 3-6-91 |
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This one is a dandy also. Here, Kathy Wilson is still kidnapped at the Chautauqua Mall, but they then go to Brown's house, Buckley takes off for a short while (with Kathy Wilson) in the van, comes back, and picks Michael up, at which time they take her to Buckley's campsite. Another thing that is really strange is that they start to tell about following Kathy Wilson to the bank, then to the (Falconer) Quality, etc., and the statement just ends.
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Statement/Report March 6, 1991 |
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.. .
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I want to go through with you, Mr. Brown, some of your most recent statements. We will start this in sequence, if I can.
(Document marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 58.)
Q. Mr. Brown let me show what is marked for identification as Defendant's Exhibit No. 58, police report dated March 6, '91. Talked to the police that day? Trooper John Herzog again, right?
MR. SMITH: Move for admission of Defendant's Exhibit 58, Your Honor.
MR. MASSA: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Let's go through what you said this day, Mr. Brown. 3-6-91, this officer and Detective James Tridico of the Warren County District Attorney's Office along with Public
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Defender Thomas Bonavita met with Pennsylvania State Police, Warren, with the accused, Michael Brown. The purpose of this interview was to go over the details of what Brown told us a week ago, 2-27-91 - - we should probably start with 2-27-91, shouldn't we? (Indicating.) I will find that at lunch. Let's go over this one, and we will go back to the one you made on 2-27 - - to go over the details which Brown told us one week ago on 2-27-91. At that time he indicated Shelly Anderson was more involved after the fact of this crime than we had any knowledge of prior to this date. Anderson, currently living - - and it gives her address and stuff in Florida - - and it says witnessing rights for Thomas Bonavita, and it starts, Brown stated that Shelly Anderson, Jay Buckley and himself talked at least one night at his residence approximately two and a half months before the abduction and kidnapping of Wilson about doing some burglaries so they could get money so the three of them could go to California. Truth or a lie?A. That's truth.
Q. Brown then asked Anderson - - Brown was then asked if Anderson ever participated in any burglaries with either he or Buckley. Brown said that Shelly had never been with Michael and Jay when they committed any burglaries together. It's possible, according to Michael, that she did assist Buckley with burglaries Brown knew nothing about. Is that
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true?A. Yeah.
Q. Brown advised that he at one time stole a VCR from a friend of his, Bill Ziebart (spelled phonetically). Is that true or a lie?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you told this jury a couple weeks ago that Jay William Buckley stole that VCR from Bill Ziebart, and you gave his name and everything and here you say you did.
A. You will have to point that out, Mr. Smith.
Q. I trust the 12 members of the jury can remember Mr. Brown.
A. We were talking about the VCR from Ellery Center the other day.
Q. So Bill Ziebart's name, you don't recall his name coming up in this trial?
A. No. You asked. You said is this the one about Bill Ziebart or something, and I said no, this is the one from Ellery Center.
Q. He advised that Ziebart came over to spend the night with him at his house one night, and after Ziebart went to sleep, Brown went over to Ziebart's house, broke in the house and stold the VCR. Brown then asked Anderson if she would drive him over to pick up the VCR. Anderson knew it was stolen and who it was stolen from, and she took him over to
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pick up the VCR. Is that true or a lie?A. Correct.
Q. That's correct? Shelly Anderson did that for you? On one other time Brown advised that he and Buckley stole guns in Ellery Center. We came back to my house and met Shelly and Shelly stopped to pick us up to take us to work at Bush Industries. Is that true?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you meet Shelly after that burglary?
A. That's correct, yes.
Q. We stood in the house shooting the bull, and it got late, and I told Jay we would have to get the stolen property out of my mother's car before we left, so he took the property out of my car and put it in Shelly's.
A. That's mistaken. It's out of my mom's car and put it into the trunk of my car.
Q. (Marking), right. We told Shelly where we had stolen it from. She later saw these guns that were at the Buffalo Grill. We were at the Buffalo Grill one night selling them. Is that true?
A. That's correct.
Q. Before the abduction of Wilson, Jay told me at one time he really wanted to go back to the Penn. He said he had absolutely nothing on the outside and wanted to go back. He felt comfortable in the Penn; is that true?
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A. Yes.Q. On 5-18-88 Jay came over to my house the first thing in the morning. He asked me what I was going to do. I told him I was going to go to work. He asked me if I could use my van. I told him there was no way he could take it. I asked him why. He told me that he was going to look for work. He then told me he wanted to use the phone, if I couldn't help him, he would call Shelly Anderson to help him. Is that true?
A. That's correct.
Q. Brown was then asked about after they left the Chautauqua Mall where did they go? Did they go first to the campsite or to a residence. Brown then advised this officer that they, in fact, after leaving the mall, drove to his house. At that time he got out of the van at the request of Buckley, went into the basement, got some electrical tape, wide electric tape, brought it back out, and Jay used it as a gag on Wilson's mouth. Brown said at the time Jay drove up in the van and walked (sic) over towards the park. Is that true?
A. It's not. He came back from the mall - -
Q. You're still lying to them. You're still telling them about the mall, weren't you (marking)? Because they are telling you all the witnesses saw her at the mall that day, aren't you?
A. No.
Q. There were some people over in the park, and he
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was going to go over and talk to them or ask them for cigarettes or something, and he saw Buckley driving back around the block saying that Jay was gone for a short time. Was there some people over in the park?A. (No response.)
Q. Who went over to ask him for cigarette papers? Do you know what he is talking about there, or you are talking about?
A. Yes.
Q. You say that, right? It says Brown said at the time Jay drove off in the van and walked (sic) over to the park. There was some people in the park, and he was going to go over and talk with them or ask them for cigarette papers or something. People. That you were going to ask for cigarette papers. You only said one person in the red van before. Now you say people. How come?
A. I don't know why it says people.
Q. That would be a lie, right (marking)? Or something. And he saw Buckley driving back around the block saying that Jay was gone a very short time. Is that true?
A. Um, that was before he came back, before I went over to the park.
Q. Yes. That's a lie, too. Brown then walked over to the van, and Buckley told him to get in, that he was going to have to go with him and help him. Brown got back in the
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van, and they drove to the campsite off Willard Street where they parked the van. What do you make of that one, Mr. Brown (marking)?A. I don't know.
Q. Jay took most of the bindings except for the hand bindings and the gag, and they walked Wilson up to the campsite (marking). Right?
A. (No response.)
Q. They were only at the campsite for approximately 20 minutes. We tied her to a tree. (Marking). You didn't tie her to a tree?
A. No.
Q. Didn't go to the campsite, right?
A. No.
Q. This is just 3-6-91, nine weeks ago. They were only at the campsite for 20 minutes. We tied her to a tree. At that point time Brown was shown a picture of Buckley's campsite and he indicated the tree to which she was tied to, and how she was placed on the ground, and he said that blanket and possibly a sleeping bag and maybe some other things were placed on top of her (marking). Why are you telling this lie, Mr. Brown?
A. I don't know.
Q. Let me tell you why you are telling that lie. Because the police tell you we recovered a white blanket at
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Mr. Buckley's campsite, and we think there is a possibility of one of the victim's hairs on that white blanket; therefore, we think the victim had to go to the campsite, and you are telling them - -MR. MASSA: I object to that line of testimony. Again, it's supposition.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. MASSA: Can I have permission, with all due respect to the Court, to finish - -
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. MASSA: Note my standing objection, with all due respect to the Court.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. You are telling them, aren't you, because that's where they want you to be; yeah, that's where we went, we went to the campsite. That's why you told that story, isn't it?
A. No.
Q. No?
A. I don't know why I did.
Q. No idea. Just sitting in your cell one day, call them up on 3-6-91 to make an appointment, or they make an appointment with you, and you tell them a campsite story, tied to the tree, underneath sleeping bags, underneath this and that, with no idea whatsoever?
A. No.
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Q. Total mystery?A. Yes.
THE COURT: Step down Mr. Brown. Court will recess until 1:30.
(Lunch recess taken.)
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Mr. Brown, we left off at your statement of 3-6-91. We got a new board for you starting at 687, okay?
A. Okay.
Q. Right where you say, you say there we were only at the campsite for approximately 20 minutes. We tied her to a tree. At that point in time Brown was showed a picture of Buckley's campsite and he indicated a tree where she was tied to. Is that true? You did that, right?
A. No.
Q. They didn't show you a picture and you indicated the tree where she was tied to?
A. Yes, but it isn't true. We already covered that.
Q. But you didn't have any problem pointing it out to them, right? And how she was placed on the ground, and he said a blanket and possibly a sleeping bag and some other things were placed on top of her. He said he did not know what was placed underneath her. After they did that, they left, got back to Brown's house, and Buckley told him stay here, I will be back for you if I need you, I am going
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looking for Shelly and my buddy. Jay Buckley ever tell you that, after he came back to the house, stay here, I am going looking for Shelly and my buddy?A. No.
Q. Lie, right (marking)? A little while later Shelly Anderson showed up - - showed up at my house and asked why I was home. Is that true?
A. None of that is, as far as I know, really accurate, because we never went to the campsite.
Q. We are not talking about the campsite. You came back from the campsite, and it says a little while later Shelly Anderson showed up at my house and asked why I was home. Is that true or not?
A. She inquired why I was home when she came to the house.
Q. So that's true? Did she show up at your house and ask why you were home?
A. She asked why I was home, yes.
Q. We shouldn't mark it as a lie, right?
A. If you want to, go head.
Q. These are your lies, not mine. A little while later - - then she wanted to know where Jay was. Is that true?
A. No.
Q. So that's a lie, right (marking)? I told her that he had left about ten minutes ago, and I thought he was
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looking for her. Lie?A. Yeah.
Q. (Marking). She asked where did he go, and I told her that he went to find you, I believe. Is that a lie?
A. Yeah.
Q. (Marking). Well, that other one would have to be a lie, too, when he said I am going looking for Shelly and my buddy, because you said Shelly was at your house when you got there?
A. I already told you it was.
Q. I told her he left about ten minutes ago, and I thought he was looking for her. That's a lie, right? She asked where did he go, and I told her that he went to find you, I believe, That's a lie. She then said she had to go find Jay. That's a lie. She said she was supposed to pick up Jay earlier that morning but she was running late - - a little late. That's a lie, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. That whole thing is a lie (marking). Approximately one hour later, it was just before my mother was scheduled to get home from work. Jay showed up with the van and Kathy Wilson tied up in the back with a blanket over her. Lie, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. I asked him did you go get her, and he told me he
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had his buddy help him take Kathy Wilson from the campsite. Lie, right (marking)? I asked Jay about Shelly and if Shelly got ahold of him. He said he met Shelly just a while ago. Lie, right (marking)? Jay told me that Shelly was to pick him up around 9:00 this morning at my house, but she didn't show up. Lie?A. That's correct.
Q. That's correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. That's the truth or a lie?
A. That's true.
Q. Truth. When we returned from the crime scene after stopping on the logging road when we stopped at the Quality parking lot on Foote Avenue, Jay told me he was going to meet somebody there. Is that a lie or not?
A. I believe he said he had to meet somebody there. He was calling somebody to met (sic) him there.
Q. Did he tell you, I am going to meet somebody at the Quality parking lot on Foote Avenue?
A. I believe so.
Q. We waited only a couple minutes, and then Jay got on the phone to make a call. I came out of Quality after I bought some cigarettes and gum and heard him say, you are going to pick me up. Jay asked me where I was going to be. Jay said Foster was going to meet him at Mister Donut. Did
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Jay tell you that?A. At that time he didn't say it was Foster, no.
Q. He didn't tell you nobody was going to meet him at Mister Donut, did he?
A. He said that's where he was getting picked up, yep.
Q. Jay said we are going to finish taking care of business at the mall. That would be a lie, too, because now you are saying you were the one that went up there (marking). Later on that evening my mother wanted me to go to the store, and I drove up Feta Place near Main Street, and it's where Davidson's restaurant was. I saw Jay walking down the street towards my house. I stopped and picked him up, and he told me that Ed Foster had just dropped him off. He told me that Foster had gone to the mall and wiped the van down - - and wiped the van down to make sure there were no fingerprints or nothing else left on the van. That's a lie, right (marking)? Later that night Jay asked me to call Shelly Anderson. I think it was between 9:30 and 10:00. He told me he wanted her to come over and get something so he could have - - for his nerves. Shelly came over and had some coke. Jay took the coke, but nothing appeared to happen with him, so I honestly don't think it was really coke. That's a lie, isn't it?
A. No.
Q. Didn't you tell the jury, yes, that was true, you
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cut the coke with flour and gave it to him?A. No, I didn't tell them that.
Q. That part is a lie. So this is true here, you didn't think it was really coke? What made you think it wasn't really coke?
A. It didn't - - I don't know, It just - - I just didn't think it was.
Q. Jay Buckley and Shelly Anderson talked for a while. Is that true?
A. They did talk, yes.
Q. I think all total Shelly was at my house for maybe 20, 25 minutes. You said 10 before. Is it 20 or 25 or 10?
A. I don't know, not very long.
Q. Jay asked me what I was going to do. I told him I was going to watch some television and not leave the house. Well, that has to be a lie, doesn't it, because you went up to the mall with him after you picked him up on the street, right?
A. I don't know. I didn't even hear what you said.
Q. That's what you said. By the way, when you picked him up here, he wasn't carrying no garbage bag, was he? How come you forgot that in this one?
A. I don't know.
Q. Shelly Anderson said she had to leave for a while, and Jay asked Shelly for a ride. Is that true?
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A. Jay said - - Jay had made mention he planned on going back to the campsite and mentioned something to Shelly about giving him a ride.Q. You are saying that's true?
A. That would be accurate.
Q. Shelly left and told Jay she would come back. Is that true?
A. She was supposed to come back and pick him up, yes.
Q. Jay said he needed a ride to the campsite. I don't know if Jay - - I don't know if Jay came back, but Brenda told me that night - - that probably should be Shelly came back - - but Brenda told me that night a little while later she beard a horn blowing outside, and Jay left and got in a car. That would be a lie?
A. Somewhat.
Q. Well, first of all, Brenda never told you she heard a horn blowing outside, and Jay never left your house in a car, because we already established the other day how Jay left your house, and it wasn't in a car, so there was no horn blowing, and Brenda didn't tell you she heard a horn blowing?
A. She said she knew somebody stopped to pick him up.
Q. You told us the other day he walked back to the campsite, didn't you? You said that it was the truth, not that somebody picked him up?
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A. I said I didn't give him a ride.Q. You said that he walked back, didn't you?
A. I said I didn't know who picked him up, but you said I give him a ride back to the campsite and I said that was incorrect because I didn't leave my house that night.
Q. Saturday, the day that Jay called and said he had to take care of some business at the crime scene, I went to the Jamestown police and was wired and went looking for Jay. I met Jay later that night at his sister's.
Q. Was it later that night you met him at his sister's or later that afternoon?
A. Evening.
Q. Well, now, I thought you were trying to get him on the wire in the afternoon, and it was about 4:00 or 5:00, still light out, when you went to the sister's house and had this conversation with him, either at the sister's house or right behind at the Four Coins or whatever - - does she live next to the Four Coins, by the way? Silver Dollar?
A. In back of the Silver Dollar.
Q. Yes, I am sorry, but I could have sworn I heard you say that was the evening - - or that was the afternoon, right after they couldn't get him on the wire, that afternoon you went over and talked to him, and I asked you the time, and it was daylight. Here you are saying night. Don't you recall that?
A. It was in the evening.
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Q. Now you are saying it was evening?A. 5:00 or 6:00 is not afternoon.
Q. 5:00, 6:00? You say night here, don't you? I met Jay later that night at his sister's, Karen's house, on Falconer Street, Jay told me we had to talk, so we walked down to Karen's house on Falconer Street.. Jay told me we had to talk, so we walked down to the Silver Dollar bar, and we sit out back talking. He told me that when I didn't come and pick him up, he called Shelly and that Shelly take [sic) him down to the crime scene because he wanted to check on things. Is that true or not?
A. He did say that Shelly Anderson picked him up and took him out to finish taking care of his business.
Q. I thought you said Shelly Anderson told you that on Saturday, that you met Shelly Anderson Saturday, and she told you that she took Jay Buckley to the crime scene. Isn't that what you said?
A. I talked to her Saturday, also, yes.
Q. Why would she tell you that if here you have Jay Buckley telling you that? You don't need to hear it twice from her, do you?
A. (No response.)
Q. Don't know? He told me that while he was at the crime scene, he picked up a shirt he had forgotten at the crime scene. Is that true or false?
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A. That's false.Q. That's false. Why did you tell that lie (marking)?
A. I don't know.
Q. Don't know? Hum, I talked to Shelly later on after she went to California. I saw her home one day, I think she came back for a visit, and I asked her why she left. He told she (sic) was getting questioned, and she did not want to get involved in this thing. She told me she knew Jay Buckley did it, and it bothered her because she didn't think Jay would do something so stupid. True or lie?
A. That's pretty much accurate.
Q. Well, let's check that accuracy with what you told the jury. You told the jury the next time you saw Shelly Anderson when you (sic) came back you said hi, she said hi. That was the only conversation you had. Here you are saying something different?
A. That's why I didn't tell you it was totally accurate.
Q. You told this jury, did you not, that on the day of the crime, May 18, Shelly Anderson told you in the car when you were sitting with her and taking this ride for 20 minutes or up and down your block or whatever you were doing, boy, I can't believe he did something so stupid. So if she told you that that day, why is she having a conversation several months
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later when she is telling you she told me she knew Jay Buckley did it and it bothered her? (Sic)A. The following Saturday night she said she was questioned and she was leaving, she didn't want no part in it.
Q. But you see, you don't have Shelly Anderson at your house driving up and down the roadway and talking to you and saying to you, gee, Jay Buckley, I can't believe he did that; you don't have her seeing Kathy Wilson in this statement; you don't have her driving the van back to the mall or following her in her car with Mr. Buckley driving back to the mall; you don't have any of that in this statement. You are not trying to protect Shelly Anderson, because you're implicating Shelly Anderson, aren't you? You're putting her name into it. So it's not done to protect Shelly Anderson, right?
A. (No response.)
Q. How come you didn't tell the police all those things?
A. (No response.)
Q. She told me she knew Jay Buckley had did it, and it bothered her because she didn't think Jay would do something so stupid. It can't be she told you that on that day, and that can't be consistent with the same story you told the jury last Monday and Tuesday?
A. I don't think you know what I told the jury last
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Monday and Tuesday.Q. Well, I think the jury will remember, Mr. Brown.
A. I hope they do.
Q. I trust they will. When I pulled into Four Coins on 5-18-88, Jay Buckley told me he was sorry he had to call me, but he called Shelly, and she was to pick him up and she didn't show up. Is that true?
A. I didn't hear the last part of that. Would you read that again?
Q. When I pulled into Four Coins Lounge on 5-18-88, Jay Buckley told me he was sorry that he had to call me, but he had called Shelly and she was to pick him up but she didn't show up.
A. He did tell me he had called Shelly, and she was supposed to pick him up.
Q. That's a little different from what you told the jury, too, isn't it? You are talking about pulling into Four Coins. This is when Jay Buckley is on a stakeout. This is when Jay Buckley calls you, demands that you get over there, and you go over there, and he tells you, we are going to rob some lady, and you follow her to the bank and into Quality and all that, and you're scared of him, threatened by him, didn't know what to do and all that, and here Jay Buckley is telling you, I'm sorry I had to call you up, I called Shelly but she didn't show up. That's a little different than what you told
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the jury Monday and Tuesday, isn't it?A. No.
Q. Not at all?
A. Not exactly, not really, no.
Q. I think possibly he had made arrangements with Shelly, and that's why he called me in such a hurry and told me I had to get right there because time was running out and he knew the lady would be leaving. True or not?
A. That's incorrect.
Q. That's a lie, right (marking)? Why did you tell that lie?
A. I don't know.
Q. Brown then drew a diagram of how he drove his van from Amo Sales on 5-18-88, and how he got to the Four Coins Lounge, and how he followed Wilson's van down Main Street to North Work and turned into a bank. He then went down Falconer Street, turned around and waited for the Wilson van to come out of the bank and followed it down Falconer. Did you do that, go down Falconer, turn around and wait for the Wilson van to come out?
A. Yeah.
Q. And then went down to Quality where the two vehicles parked, and then when Wilson returned out of Quality, how they followed it out of the north parking lot into the alley and then down the alley back onto Main Street. Lie,
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right?A. Yes.
Q. (Marking). Brown indicated that Wilson parked out in front of Quality fairly close to the entrance, and he parked in the next aisle down or back one or two spaces when they parked at Quality. Lie, right?
A. We were parked in the back.
Q. Fairly close to the entrance and he parked on the next aisle down or back one or two spaces.
A. It was further than that.
Q. Lie (marking). You're getting used to telling them how you park vehicles and kidnap people because you just came from the Chautauqua Mall story where you went in great detail telling them about that, right? And this is 3-6-91, and I found your 2-27-91, which we are doing to do next. And you make one 4-23-91, and you have made preliminary hearings and all these other statements?
A. I didn't make these statements. These are supplement reports from the police.
Q. That's what they are. They are saying what you said to them. 9-29-89 is when you come up with this deal, take the limousine ride down here, and you come up with Jay Buckley did all this, right? That's when you come up with this. And here this is the coolest guy in the world, Mr. Herzog, and you have lied to him for over a year now. We are
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going into the 18th month of lies, right? How come?A. I don't know.
Q. If you were talking to Wayne Stewart up in Jamestown, would you have told him the truth right off the bat?
A. (No response.)
MR. SMITH: Move Defendant's Exhibit 58, if I haven't already.
MR. MASSA: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted
(Document marked Defendant's Exhibit No, 59.)
MR. SMITH: Let me show you what has been marked for identification purposes as Defendant's Exhibit 59, police report dated 2-27-91. Again, Mr. Herzog, right?
(No response.)
MR. SMITH: Move for admission of Defendant's Exhibit 59, Your Honor.
MR. MASSA: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. This is what, three - - eight days or so before you made the one we just read, right?
A. (No response.)
Q. 2-27-91 this officer met with attorneys Ross McKeirnan, Assistant Public Defender, and Thomas Bonavita,
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| Report/Statement 3-6-91 |
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