Dec 22, 1989 Statement

12-21-89

Statement of Dec. 22, 1989

1-5-90

Here are the transcripts of Mr. Brown's testimony at Jay Buckley's trial on May 14, 1991 (#11) pp. 7 - 118. They concern attorney Smith's cross-examination of Mr. Brown on his statement of December 22, 1989. This is Mr. Brown's eighth statement to Pennsylvania authorities. And his third in as many days, beginning with the signing of his "plea agreement" on December 20, 1989.

This statement is truly incredible. And totally inconsistent with any of his previous statements.

In his October 4 statement, Kathy Wilson is at the gravel pit off of Carlsburg Road (and already dead) when Brown first becomes involved - in the early morning hours of May 19, 1988. In this (Oct 4) statement Buckley has already kidnapped, and apparently killed Kathy Wilson, and stashed her body. Brown merely drives him to the gravel pit (about midnight), and helps Buckley load her body into the van, after which Buckley takes him home.

Brown's statements of October 6, and 10, both begin with this same scenario. In those statements, Brown first sees her at the gravel pit, as in his October 4 statement, but instead of Buckley taking him home, he accompanies Buckley in taking Mrs. Wilson to the crime scene on Lindell Road, and she is alive. In both of these statements (Oct. 6, 10) Brown also advises that he removed Kathy Wilson's blouse and bra (upon Buckley's orders), and witnesses Buckley rape and stab her.

Brown was arrested following the statement of October 10, 1989, and gave no further statements until December 20, 1989. In his statement of December 20, he makes no mention of any of these aspects of the crime. That statement appears to be more of a pep-talk than a statement. His statement of December 21 is totally incompatable with any of his other statements. In that statement, he says Kathy Wilson is already tied up in the woods at the crime scene on Lindell Road the first time he sees her. The only common thread in each of these statements was that these events occurred between midnight and 2:00 a.m. on May 19th.

But according to this statement (December 22), Brown first becomes involved at the Chautauqua Mall at 5:30 p.m. on May 18, where Buckley already has Kathy Wilson bound in the back of her van. And again there is no discussion, no questioning, and no explanation of any of these gross inconstincies. But this particular statement is especially incredible. Here Herzog simply lays it out for him - and Brown simply agrees.

The fact is, the first 29 pages of this statement are merely a set-up by Herzog and "attorney" Aranyos, and consumes one whole side of the tape, it appears. You won't catch it at first glance, but if you read closely you will see that this entire section is directed soley at obtaining Mr. Brown's statement that he was present during the abduction (on May 18) at the Chautauqua Mall at about 5:00 p.m. Or more accurately, Herzog is simply telling Michael Brown what the story has to be. (or what he thinks it has to be - at this point).

Here's an excerpt of this statement of December 22, omitting (most of) Barry Smith's cross-examination. Each of these variations are worthy of a close reading.

Of course ALL of this is lies too, not just in the overall sense, (NONE of this actually happened) - but in relation to Brown's previous statements, his subsequent statements, and his trial testimony. The reason for that of course is that Michael is simply telling police what they want him to - in fact what they are telling him! And at this time they believed the kidnapping occurred at the Chautaqua Mall. The very serious problem of course, is that it didn't.

It is (quite) apparent that Herzog "wants" Brown to be at the Chautauqua Mall, primarily because there are several witnesses that claim to have seen Kathy Wilson there. The interesting part though is that it was around 12:00 - 12:30 that she was seen according to these witnisses... So they now have Brown at the mall - where he needs to be. But it is at 5:00 - more lies that they know are lies, or certainly does not fit their theory of the case. But that's ok, at least they have him at the mall - they work on the times the next time around ( January 5, 1991). There, they finally bring him around to being at the mall - where they believe (at this time) the abduction took place - at about 12:30 p.m.)

And that's where it gets really bizarre. For one thing, because Michael's time card shows he punched in at 8:37 a.m. and punched out at 4:37 p.m. But they just pretty much ignore that little problem. Where it gets all sticky is all the stuff they have to come up with to account for the time between 12:30 and 5:20 p.m. - when the witness (Jesperson) "sees" them in Akeley. (Another real farce).

But there is more. In fact, what I find most interesting concerns Herzog leading Michael through his "recollection" of his telling Herzog (in his October 10 statement) about Buckley loosening the straps (bindings/whatever) and Kathy Wilson "taking off" and Buckley "throwing her down".

The strange thing is that that is NOT what Michael said in his statements of either October 6 or October 10 - or since. So how does Michael "remember" something he never said - YET? Forty pages later he does say exactly that though. And, interestingly, that is about the only thing in this entire case that he is consistent with - from here, all the way through his trial testimony.

Funny how that was Herzog's purported (and after the fact) probable cause for Brown's arrest too. (As well as Jay Buckley's).

Here Herzog is telling Brown what the basic story has to be.

They also have the ring in here aready too - in (their) report of 1-3-90. Wonder how he knew the ring was missing?

And this might be the best one of all. Here is their account of the Akeley episode. MUCH better than Michael's account. (Here's Michael's version - over a month later (January 24, 1990.)

Here is where they are trying to get Buckley back to the crime scene. This of course is indespensible because it ties in with Michael's actions when he went to the Jamestown police to be wired up three days after Kathy Wilson's disappearance.

Barry Smith's cross-examination of Michael Brown's
Statement of December 22, 1989

A. No.

Q. It says, I Michael Brown have read the above typed statement and find it true and correct to my knowledge and belief?

A. But I didn't sign it.

Q. Did you refuse to sign this statement?

A. I doubt it, but I didn't sign it.

MR. SMITH: I think I moved for admission of Defendant's Exhibit No. 32. If I haven't, I do so now.

MR. MASSA: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted.

(Document marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 33.)

BY MR. SMITH:

Q. Mr. Brown, I will show you what has been marked for identification purposes as Defendant's Exhibit 33 which is a taped statement of 12-22-89 and a transcript thereof. Do you remember making that statement?

A. Not really, no, I don't. Not specifically no.

Q. Do we get the tape?

A. I am not saying I didn't make it. I just obviously don't remember specifically.

Q. Let's go through it and see if you can remember your specific answers here. Let me ask you this. First of all, 12-20-89 when you have the plea bargain agreement you make a statement to the police, right, and you tell them 105

percent of the truth? And 12-22 you're making another statement to the police. How come three days in a row you're making different statements to the police one right after the other?

A. Because they wanted to talk to me and took a statement three days in a row.

Q. It isn't because they didn't come back and say certain things you are saying are not true? We know they are not true. We need a new statement. They didn't say anything like that, did they?

A. No.

Q. Let's go through this one. Okay. I will help you out here. Herzog says this is a taped statement, the time being 1838 hours and the date is 12-22-89. We are at the Warren County Courthouse on the third floor. I am Trooper John Herzog, Pennsylvania State Police. I wish to advise you you have the absolute right to remain silent and anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You are represented by counsel. Do you understand your constitutional rights? You say what?

A. Yes.

Q. With your constitutional rights in mind, are you willing now to talk with us? And you say what?

A. Yes.

Q. Present in the room during the interview is

Michael Brown. Michael, will you state your name and address name and your age, please?

A. Michael Brown, 18.

Q. Are you 18 then?

A. I am 19 now.

Q. Are you 18 then, 12-22-89?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. Michael’s attorney, John Aranyos, and myself, Trooper John Herzog III, and Mr. Aranyos. And Mr. Aranyos says on behalf of Mr. Brown, I am prepared to sign a waiver of rights. As attorney of record I will indicate I have again discussed this matter with Mr. Brown. I am advising him to cooperate fully under the terms of the plea agreement reached between the parties or (sic) irrespective of what Mr. Brown may say at this particular point in time, the Commonwealth merely agrees to prosecute the plea and accept a plea agreement of hindering apprehension, compounding and accomplice to unlawful restraint.

Again, I advised my client to cooperate 100 percent and provide all information on my client's knowledge and at this point in time answer every question that is asked by Trooper Herzog in accordance with that particular plea agreement and under no circumstances am I advising him to withhold any information whatsoever, and I ask him to fulfill the terms of the plea agreement and he readily acknowledges

that he understands.

Q. Did you understand what your attorney just said there?

A. Yeah.

Q. And you agreed to tell 100 percent of the truth, cooperate fully, not withhold anything, disclose everything, right?

A. I guess probably.

Q. How come you didn't?

A. I don't know.

Q. You think you did in this statement? You think this is a true statement?

A. Probably a lot of it is. I don't know.

Q. Well, truth of the matter is, Mr. Brown, we are going to go through statements all the way up to two weeks before this trial started, and you haven't been truthful in any of them, have you? Every statement you made, what you testified to Monday, doesn't match any of them.

A. Yes, it does.

Q. When we get to that statement, you point it out to me.

A. All the statements we have done, there is truth in all of them.

Q. She was a lady, right?

A. There is a little bit more than that.

Q. Okay. Michael, you have signed a waiver of rights so let's proceed. As a matter of record, Mike, as you see, it's just the three of us again tonight. No one else is going to be here to make you uncomfortable all right? And it says you acknowledge. Michael, we talked yesterday in great detail about the crime scene, and we will probably go back to the crime scene tonight. What time did you go to work on the 18th of May?

A. I got there probably ten to 9:00 or so.

Q. What time did you leave?

A. Around 5:00.

Q. Is that a lie or is that a truth?

A. It's a lie.

Q. (Marking) why did you tell that lie?

A. Because I believe I told them that I was telling them it still happened at nighttime, I believe.

Q. Did you take a break for lunch that day?

A. No.

Q. Is that truth or a lie?

A. I didn't take a break; I left.

Q. Why didn't you take a break for lunch that day?

A. I am not positive whether I took a break or not, but some days I just stayed there at the building and didn't punch out for lunch.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, Mike, knowing full well we

checked your time cards, and it's a matter of routine every day that you punch out for lunch and punch in, whether, in fact, you went someplace or not, you punched out and punched in every day except for the 18th of May. And your answer is what?

A. No, I didn't. I used to just get in trouble for not punching out for lunch.

Q. Trooper Herzog said, did I miss something?

A. No, essentially what he is saying - - this is from my attorney - - is during that week it's the only day he didn't but if you check his entire time record for employment there are other days he didn't punch out.

Q. That's your attorney?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that true? In other words, there is a lot of days you don't punch out for lunch?

A. Up until about maybe three weeks before this, there was quite a few.

Q. So that wasn't anything abnormal as far as you not punching out for lunch on the time card of May 18, right?

A. I used to not, but I got in trouble, so I started punching out just about every day.

Q. So you say what in response to what your attorney says?

A. There is a lot of them.

Q. Lot of them referring to days when you didn't punch out for lunch?

A. Yes.

Q. Trooper Herzog says, well, I did check your records, okay, and I am saying you punched in and punched out because you were addressed at a period of time shortly after you worked there that there was a state law you have to punch in and punch out. For a while, not awhile, a couple of times after you started there you didn't punch in and punch out, but after that time you were addressed, it was a matter of record that you did punch in and punch out with regularity daily except the 18th of May. With that statement, can you accept that statement? You say what?

A. I don't know if I didn't punch out and - - excuse me, I will tell you that right now.

Q. On that basis let's just concentrate on that day.

A. All right.

Q. Do you remember not punching out that day?

A. No, well, I know I didn't because I seen the time card.

Q. For the record I showed him the time card. You have seen it. It's in our possession. Oh, that's your attorney talking again. And then Herzog says, in fact, you punched out at 4:36 exactly to go home that day. And you say what?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. That's a lie, right (marking)?

A. Yeah.

Q. Herzog says, is that pretty correct, and you say what?

A. Yeah.

Q. That's a lie, too (marking)?

A. Yes.

Q. Why did you leave at 4:36 that day?

A. I don't have no idea. It's possible maybe there just wasn't work to do and they let us go home early. That's happened more than once also.

Q. That's a lie, too (marking)?

A. Yeah.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, okay, we again, me asking them that specific question, they advised me that May is their prime time, rush time getting the boats out to the customers and prime time for sales or whatever for the upcoming summer. They said it would highly unlikely that it would be from lack of business that they sent you home early that day. Normal quitting time is, in fact, 5:00 on Wednesday, right? And you say what?

A. Yeah.

Q. All right. Now, Michael accept, and I say accept in a way I am going to tell you as what I have been trying to

tell you since the first time I met you, I am honestly attempting to look out in your best interest to the point you don't get yourself caught up a jam by not telling the whole truth, And you say what?

A. Um, um.

Q. And Herzog says, all right, and I have tried to do that from the first time I met you. I don't play games with people, I don't lie to people. When I tell them something, there is a meaning behind it, all right? And you say what?

A. Yeah.

Q. And Herzog says, knowing full well you have a deal with the Commonwealth that if you cooperate you receive a reduced charge, and those are the only charges that will be placed against you regardless of what you admit to, okay, from your interviews when you started and each time we interviewed you, we went just a little bit further with each interview, and each interview you gave us a little more information.

Sometimes the information was in addition to what you told the time before; sometimes it was a little bit of a variation. Sometimes you told us it didn't really happen this way, it happened this way, and for instance, about the scenario that you have told us and one I questioned you on yesterday about removing Kathy Wilson’s blouse and bra, and then Jay William Buckley stabbing her, you told me originally that Jay William Buckley told you this and then you told me

you were there when it happened and then you finally got the truth part where you saw it happen; okay, you visually saw it. It took us a while to get to that and push you to and to explain reasons that you were telling us how that occurred couldn't have happened unless you saw it, right?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Now, from what you told me yesterday and from what you told me in the past you have deviated on, you have changed your crime scene to the point of the actual incident where Kathy Wilson was raped and murdered is pretty much basic, the same as what you told me before, but how you came into this picture has changed, right?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And also there has been no involvement by you in this crime scene. Okay, Michael. I can't explain it any better, I don't think I have to look in the last - - the other night when we talked about looking out for number one, yourself, you have an opportunity now to a difference or a possibility going to jail for maybe the rest of your life compared to going to jail for a minimum period of years, right?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. They are telling you there, aren't they, if you don't cooperate if you don't come up with a story, If you don't tell the truth, we are going to go after you with murder

One, right?

A. That's what they are saying.

Q. Pull your plea and go after you on Murder one, right? But yet you still don't come up with any truths, you know, throughout the rest of the deal.

A. I told them most of the truth.

Q. Okay, We will see. We will see. They're also telling you here they don't like your story about your time card and being there at work that day?

A. I guess.

Q. Is that why you decide that if the police don't like that story maybe I should say, hey, I pushed out early and I wasn't there that afternoon?

A. No.

Q. That's not where you got that idea?

A. No.

Q. As I sit here in front of you, you have to realize your statement is not the only thing that has put you in the position you're in. You say, I would not have told you I would not have been arrested. We have physical evidence we obtained from the crime scene. You say what?

A. What is that?

Q. He says, let me finish.

A. Okay.

Q. We have people who can possibly put you someplace

you say you were not. Michael Brown, again, all we are asking from you is the truth, not the way you want to paint it for your benefit to make you look good. We want the truth from you. Nobody is playing games with you. Believe me, nobody is playing games with you. You have the tendency, when I first met you, each time I talk to you, to leave out pieces conveniently to suit you. Some of the information you gave me before, as I said, tells me that some of the things that you told us or didn't tell us yesterday or left out for some reason to make yourself not involved or whatever, okay, Michael, and I have a deal, and I am sure your attorney read you the deal and went over it with you, and it says you will tell the truth at all times about all matters or this deal is null and void, it doesn't exist, and then, in fact, you will be prosecuted.

Okay. Now, you gave, you must have thought that that was a good deal or least better than what you were looking at, right, the possibility that you made an admission that you were there, okay, so you knew the potential was there that you might spend the rest of your life in jail. We are not saying you are not to be convicted or not convicted. (sic) I am not arguing you have been convicted in a court of law, but the potential is there. You know what your involvement was, right? You say what?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Again, I think one of the problems, my personal opinion, of the interview yesterday, one of your problems here is possibly Brenda, and how she is going to take your involvement or what you did because you didn't want to lose Brenda. What do you say?

A. It don't really matter any way.

Q. Why not?

A. I planned on it anyway.

Q. Planned on what?

A. Losing her, get adjusted to that fact, so I don't think it matters no more.

Q. Does she share that opinion?

A. No.

Q. You are going to lose your son, too. I mean you are going to disassociate yourself with your son.

A. I guess it depends on how things work out.

Q. What do you mean how things work out?

A. Just what I said, you know, if he is going to be a couple of years old before I get out of here, I just as soon disassociate myself from him.

Q. You are the only father he will ever have?

A. In jail he probably won't want me.

Q. He probably doesn't want you. Well, Michael, let me say this. As I said, you're his only father. Nobody else can take the place of being his father. You're trying to make

a decision now to influence his life. I am sure there are people that did 50 years in jail and are still the father of their son. The father, the son, whatever, you can't change that. So you're getting off on another thing. Are there things that you haven't told us about the crime scene? Was that scenario that you gave me yesterday, was that a 100 percent correct? You say what?

A. That wasn't (sic) correct.

Q. That's a lie, right (marking)?

A. Yeah.

Q. So when we just went through that whole litany about Brenda and sons and et cetera, life sentences and possibly facing life in jail, you still lie, right?

A. Yeah.

Q. Herzog then says, everything about that was 100 percent correct?

A. Yes.

Q. That's a lie, too, right?

A. Yeah.

Q. (Marking). Herzog then says, do you recall the last interview that we had the day that you were arrested and in that interview you told me about Kathy Wilson and about driving up in your van and getting out of the vehicle and standing her up.

A. That wasn't the last one. It was a long time ago.

Q. And then Mr. Aranyos says, he is referring to the last one before you were arrested. And you say what?

A. Yeah, but I am saying it wasn't only in the last one.

Q. No, but do you remember saying that?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Do you remember that?

A. Yeah, very plainly.

Q. What did you tell me that day?

A. I told you that we went to the gravel pit and - -

Q. No, no, from the time that you parked the van on Lindell Road.

A. Uh, I told you that we got her out. Jay had a gun with him, and we walked into the woods.

Q. You walked in the woods. Be more specific. Be very detailed. I don't have my notes in front of me. I don't have your statement in front of me. I can (sic) tell you exactly what you told me. Tell me what you said.

A. Jay told me to grab ahold of her and start walking, and I told you once we got down in the woods she stopped and, pause. Sat the gun up against the tree and, pause, so I told you I picked it up, picked up the gun.

Q. Um, um, pretty basically, and then what happened?

A. I told you he told me to - - I told you first that she tried to take off, and then I said he caught her and threw

her down, and I remember I told you that he told me to remove her blouse and bra, and that's when he ripped her clothes off.

Q. Got out of the van, started down in. The bindings were making it tough, so he took the bindings off her legs and went down a little bit further, and I believe removed the bindings from behind her back, and at that point time (sic) she took off. He yelled at her to stop. She stopped. Came over, got her. A little bit of a struggle, brought her back to the trail, right?

A. Um, um, um.

Q. Is that truth or a lie? Mr. Herzog just went through a whole story with you, and you said um, um, um. Is that the way it happened the way Mr. Herzog just explained it?

A. Somewhat.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, from that point, okay, you describe what you did and what he did. Pretty much 99.9.9.9 that day you did as you did yesterday from the point she comes out of the woods where she ran off the trial, (sic) okay. Now, Michael, I am sitting here in front of you and saying to you in all sincerity, not jacking you, not stroking you, we have physical evidence that that scenario, or that last day when you were at the barracks when you gave that description, you, were, in fact, were there and that did occur, that you did help her out of the vehicle and that you did help her walk

down into the woods and that did occur, and that she did run and she did get her - - and that everything else transpired. We have physical evidence that says that occurred.

Now, stop right there, Michael. Credibility, again, here it comes, credibility. You have been given the opportunity, and as I said before, I don't think a bad deal if you speak the truth and tell us 110 percent, Mr. Aranyos then says, before we go any further, you and I have talked about this, that this is no longer a game and you say what?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Aranyos says then, the game playing that you acknowledged that you have done in the past has got to stop yesterday. As Mr. Herzog has told you, I have told you and am telling you right now, no matter what you say to implicate yourself to whatever extent, the deal is the deal is the deal. Trooper Herzog has made this clear over and over again. So have I. What he is asking you to do is tell 110 percent of the truth and not tomorrow. And you say what?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And then Aranyos says, today, all right, I want to make that very clear right now because he is going to continue and I know where he is going. At this point I am telling you again to give 110 of the truth. The deal is the deal. No more game playing. The evidence he is alluding to exists. This is not a game. He is not playing games with

you. He doesn't even have to tell you or go this far. We want to make the deal work. You do not make this deal work if you do not tell him the truth. I am putting it on the table right now it's conceivable that Trooper Herzog or anybody can say this deal is off and any and all statements that you have made, or agreed to make, they all can be used against you, and you can be back to square one. I am advising you to tell him everything.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And Mr. Aranyos says, all right. And you say what?

A. Um, um.

Q. After that whole litany you continue to lie on this statement. Why?

A. Well, at first, you know, the deal didn't sound all that - - all that appealing to me, I guess. I thought I was looking at a little too much time for what involvement I had.

Q. Weren't you told by Mr. Aranyos the sentencing guidelines showed zero to one year?

A. In the perpetrated range or whatever it's called.

Q. The minimum range?

A. Yeah.

Q. And didn't you feel at that time he were going to get one year in jail?

A. I don't really know what I felt, I don't know. I have no idea. I figured I was going to come - - like I said before, I figured at the time I thought, well, if I go through and tell them the truth, and then they will kind of use me and throw the plea away and I will get stuck.

Q. They are telling you the exact opposite, aren't they? Aren't they telling you no matter what you tell them, you still got a plea agreement as long as it's the truth?

A. That's what they are saying, yes, but I was also told that I probably wouldn't go to jail, and I have been sitting there almost two years, so I didn't really trust them.

Q. So you didn't trust them and that's why you lied. If you lied, if you have this plea bargain agreement and you lie, then you understand what they are telling you is you face Murder One and more than two years, perhaps life in prison. That doesn't worry or concern you at all?

A. Well, with this plea agreement I was facing seven to 14 years, and if they were going to give me seven to 14 years, I just as soon they give me life.

Q. You didn't think you were getting seven to fourteen years? You don't even think that today, do you?

A. I don't know what the thing - - I really don't know.

Q. Let's go on. One thing we have got - - this is Herzog again - - one thing we have got to remember, we do not

base your (sic) investigation solely on what you told us, and knowing some of these things you are telling us are correct, all right? And Mr. Aranyos says they already knew it by independent sources is what he is saying, and you will verify. And Herzog says, and what we are saying in our agreement is we want you to identify for us, but if these things that we are uncovering are discredited by the defense attorney by you not wanting to say I was with him when she was abducted, I was at the Chautauqua Mall - - are they telling you right there to say that you're with Jay Buckley, that you were at the Chautauqua Mall when she was kidnapped?

A. (Pause.)

Q. Are they suggesting that to you?

A. Well, they knew that I was obviously there when she had been abducted, and I think they are just - -

Q. But this is the first time this comes up about you being there when she is abducted and they say they feel you were with him. So they kind of want you to say that. And they are saying at the Chautauqua Mall because they think she was kidnapped at the Chautauqua Mall, right? And then on your later statements, I don't know if it's this one or later down the road, you were with him and kidnapping her from the Chautauqua Mall. Why don't you tell them you are kidnapping her from Quality? What difference does it make if you kidnapped her from Chautauqua Mall or Quality except for the

police are telling you here we feel she was kidnapped from the Chautauqua Mall?

A. I don't know what difference it makes.

Q. But you are saying that's not the first time that you heard that, right. It's not why that all came into your mind, that statement there they made to you?

A. No.

Q. This is still Mr. Herzog, still same paragraph. By you not wanting to say I was with her when she was abducted I was at the Chautauqua Mall when she was taken from her van and put in my van. They are also telling you she was put in your van there, right? I was - - and then it probably should say with him. It says, I was him as we were driving south on 62. They are telling you where you are going, right? If you don't want to say that, that is liable to be brought out and that's liable to discredit you. Michael, nothing more is going to happen to you than has already happened to you, all right?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Aren't they making your whole story - - didn't Mr. Herzog tell you the whole story right there to say, what he wants you to say, what he wants you to come clean with?

A. He wanted me to come clean with the truth.

Q. Yes, but he is telling you right there, we have got evidence, and this is what we think the truth is. Isn't

that what he is saying to you in that paragraph? That that's what you did, that you abducted her from the Chautauqua Mall, put her in your van, drove south on 62? He is telling you all that stuff, isn't he? And we have got evidence to prove it. And you think, they must, I will tell that story, right?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Let's go on. Mr. Herzog says nobody is going to come in and say you didn't tell us this, you didn't tell us that, now we are going to arrest you for it. The deal has been made. I can't think in my mind why you are not telling us unless you figure we are never going to know, but you have no idea what we know and what we have, okay? And you say yes. This just might be the start of it. What I just told you, you know what I say, I did not get her out of - - then it ends, end of side one of tape. And apparently there is a discussion that is not on the tape and then we start with them asking questions. Do you recollect what the discussion off the tape was? Is he telling you more things off the tape that they think happened that day?

A. No.

Q. Do you recollect what the discussion that is not on the transcript was?

A. No.

Q. The next page starts with them asking you questions - - or Mr. Aranyos - - I'm sorry. Mr. Aranyos says,

before we start, again, I am advising you, Michael, I want you to tell 100 percent of everything. This is no longer a game. If he asked (sic) you any questions, just tell him. And Mr. Herzog says, Michael, let's go back to the 18th of May. On that day when is the first time you saw Kathy Wilson?

A. 5:00.

Q. Lie, right (marking)?

A. Yeah.

Q. Eight pages, eight pages of tell the truth, this is it, deal, boom, lie, first thing out of your mouth, right, when they start asking you?

A. Yeah.

Q. Herzog, 5:00 in the evening?

A. Give or take, and the rest of it is garbled.

Q. Herzog, okay, clarification, knowing that all these times can vary ten minutes, 15 minutes, whatever 5:00, (sic) where did you first see Kathy Wilson?

A. Well, the first time I seen her was at the Chautauqua Mall.

Q. Lie, right (marking)?

A. Yeah.

Q. Now, you didn't just start saying in this statement you saw her at the Chautauqua Mall because they just told you before you made this statement we have evidence that that's what happened? You didn't start putting the Chautauqua

Mall story in this statement because they told you that, did you?

A. I don't know why I told them that.

Q. Okay. Now, where about at the Chautauqua Mall?

A. What do you mean where about?

Q. Well, you said you saw Kathy Wilson at 5:00, and I asked you where, and you said at the Chautauqua Mall. Aranyos says, he means in a parking area in the mall, in a store, in the mall? Herzog, did you, in fact, see Kathy Wilson before the 18th at the Chautauqua Mall? And you say no.

A. No, it was on the 18th.

Q. And Herzog says, okay, the 18th of May you saw Kathy Wilson at the Chautauqua Mall at 5:00? And you say what?

A. Maybe 5:30.

Q. That's a lie, right?

A. Yeah.

Q. (Marking). Okay, where was she?

A. She was with Jay in her van.

Q. That's a lie, right (marking)?

A. She wasn't with Jay in her van at Chautauqua Mall, no.

Q. In her van. How did you get there?

A. Jay called me at work, and I left early, and he told me to come to the Chautauqua Mall to pick him up.

Q. Lie, right (marking)?

A. He didn't tell me to come to the Chautauqua Mall, no.

Q. He didn't call you at work and you didn't leave early. You're trying there - - they told you about the time card and the problem they have with the time card. They told you they think she was at Chautauqua Mall, and you're changing your story to say Chautauqua Mall, and your changing your story to say hey, I left at 4:32 (sic) and drove to the Chautauqua Mall, right, or whatever you are saying this time?

A. I don't know.

Q. But you can't believe when you are saying this stuff that the police are going to believe you're out of work early that day because you clearly were there and you have a time card that said you were there and the foreman and everybody else is going to say you were there, so the best you can do is 4:32, (sic) isn't it, and that's what you're thinking of in this statement?

A. I don't know what I am thinking of in this statement.

Q. You were at work at Amo Sales?

A. Um, um.

Q. And Jay called you at Amo's and asked you to come to the Chautauqua Mall. Did he tell you what was going on?

A. When I got there.

Q. Okay. Let's go back a little bit. When he called you at Amo’s, what did he tell you to make you leave work at 4:36 and go to the Chautauqua Mall?

A. He just asked me if I could leave. I told him yeah. He said, well, do you want to come over and pick me up. I said yes.

Q. That's all a lie, right?

A. Yeah.

Q. (Marking). Okay. Where were they in the parking lot? Where was the van parked? What do you say?

A. Towards like sort of on the side that the cinema is on.

Q. The side that the cinema is on. What made you tell them that?

A. Well, I knew where her van was, so I told what side it was on.

Q. You didn't find out where her van was when the police showed you an aerial photo of the location of the van, right?

A. They never showed me an aerial photo of where her van was. I told them where it was.

Q. Did you ever tell one of your cellmates in Warren County Jail you never knew where the van was until they showed you an aerial photo?

A. Like I said, they never showed me an aerial photo.

Q. That wasn't my question.

A. No, I didn't.

Q. So if a cellmate testified to that he would be lying, right?

A. Yep.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, okay, and you say what?

A. You know what I am telling you.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, yes, yes, you arrived there in your van. Where was Kathy Wilson?

A. She was in the van.

Q. Okay. Was she restrained in any way?

A. Um, um.

Q. How was she restrained?

A. Clothes.

Q. No, you say tied.

A. Oh, I am sorry. I am one down. Tied.

Q. How was she tied?

A. Clothes.

Q. Truth or a lie?

A. She was tied - - her arms were tied with a shirt.

Q. In the van? In her van?

A. Not in her van, no.

Q. That's what he is asking you. When you arrived there, there is nobody else’s vehicle around. When you arrived there, you told them she is tied up inside her van

with clothes?

A. Yes.

Q. It's a lie?

A. Yeah.

Q. (Marking) All right. Do you remember where the restraints and where the clothes were on her body? What do you say?

A. On her ankles, knees, elbows, hands and her mouth.

Q. That about covers all parts of the human anatomy, right?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. You're still covering everything you can. What was on her mouth?

A. Tape like the black, I assume, electrical tape.

Q. Where was she in the van?

A. Right behind the seat.

Q. Lying on the floor?

A. Um, um.

Q. That's all a lie, right?

A. No.

Q. She wasn't taped about her ankles, knees, elbows, hands and mouth. She wasn't in a van. She wasn't right behind the seat and she wasn't lying on a floor at any time.

A. Yes, she was.

Q. Lying on the floor in her van? Her van?

A. When we pulled into my driveway he got her down onto the floor and she was laying on the floor.

Q. You are not talking about your driveway here. You are talking about the Chautauqua Mall.

A. I realize that. You said none of this ever happened. It did happen. A lot of it happened.

Q. Was she tied about the ankles, knees, elbows, hands and her mouth?

A. Her ankles and hands and mouth.

Q. Ankles, hands and mouth. I thought you said the electrical tape wasn't gotten until later on in the day?

A. I am not saying at that time. You were just asking me whether she was bound all the way with her ankles, elbows, knees and her mouth. I am saying the ankles, hands and her mouth is correct.

Q. Herzog says, okay, what was she wearing? What do you say?

A. She was wearing a black dress with a light red blouse.

Q. That one? Same one they showed you in the video?

A. I don't know what one it was.

Q. Why did you lie about that there?

A. I don't really know. I don't know.

Q. You are not lying because the police still haven't told you yet she was in a tan outfit?

A. I knew she was in a tan outfit.

Q. You knew she was in a tan outfit, what statement are we at, eight, nine, and you still got her in a black dress, light red blouse. Why?

A. I was kind of in a way hoping maybe they would get a little bit better of a deal.

Q. You were going to get a better deal by telling them all the way through these first eight statements she was in a light red blouse and black dress. Explain how you were going to get a better deal by telling them that?

A. I don't know how. I just thought maybe it would have been possible.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, okay, did she have any type of coat or jacket or anything on? You say what?

A. She might have. I didn't see anything.

Q. Is that true?

A. She did at one time but - -

Q. Did she have a jacket on? Did you ever see her with a jacket on that day?

A. I wouldn't really call it a jacket. I don't really know what it was. It was like a - - like a - - something like a overcoat, I guess is what you call it.

Q. How long an overcoat?

A. I don't even remember how long it was. I don't know.

Q. No idea?

A. No.

Q. Did it go to her ankles, go to here?

A. No.

Q. Just fit her over the side?

A. It went down a little ways.

Q. How far?

A. I can't remember, I told you.

Q. Can't remember?

A. No, I can't.

Q. You can't remember whether it went to the ankles or went to the hips?

A. It didn't go that far, but I don't really remember.

Q. How many buttons did it have?

A. I didn't count them.

Q. Did it have any emblems on it?

A. Not that I know of, no. Not that I know of.

Q. Did you ever tell the police in any of your statements you saw Kathy Wilson with a jacket on?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. I don't know when it was, but I know I told them.

Q. So you were lying here when you said I didn't see anything, right? Let's mark it up (marking). Right?

A. Go ahead.

Q. What happened to Kathy Wilson's jacket?

A. I don't know. I don't know what ever became of it.

Q. When did you see her with it on?

A. When we pulled into my driveway. That was the last time I seen it, and he brang her into the basement and I hadn't seen it since.

Q. Did she have it on in the basement?

A. When she was getting brought into my basement yes, but I don't remember it after that.

Q. When she was brought out of the basement and put in your van two or two and a half hours later, whatever, did she have a jacket on or not?

A. Not when she was brought back up. I don't remember seeing it.

Q. Do you think the jacket is still in your basement?

A. I doubt it.

Q. Possible, right? It's possible?

A. It's a possibility I guess, but I hardly doubt it.

Q. How long is her hair, Mr. Brown? You were with her the whole afternoon?

A. Shoulder length, I didn't go back and scope her out.

Q. You didn't get back there and scope her out, How was it done? Straight hair? Curly hair? Done on top? How was her hair done, Mr. Brown?

A. Just kind of like little curls, I guess, not a perm or nothing.

Q. Is this the hairdo she had, Defendant's Exhibit 13 (indicating)? Is that like the hair she had the day you saw her?

A. Not exactly I wouldn't say, no.

Q. You tell me exactly. What was her hair like the day you saw her?

A. It was kind of like that, but I don't remember it being exactly like that.

Q. Twenty-five statements; 25 statements and the police never asked you that question, did they?

A. I don't think there is 25 statements.

Q. The police never asked you that question, did they? Never asked you what her hair was like. That is why you're having so much difficulty?

A. I believe they did. That statement we reviewed yesterday they asked me.

Q. I don't recollect it.

A. I believe we did.

Q. Mr. Brown, cranking over 300 lies, filled up one-half of the chalkboard, right? You lied to this jury

directly. Oh, I wasn't talking about reward money, I never said I strangled her. On and on and on. You told lies directly to the jury in this courtroom.

A. I said I couldn't remember saying I strangled her. I don't know what happened to the statements.

Q. Civic duty, nothing in the statements about civic duty. Stuff in the statements about reward money.

A. Yeah.

Q. You think the whole jury is ignorant here?

A. No.

Q. Let's go on, Mr. Brown. If you're not embarrassed, I am not embarrassed.

A. I am not the one that should be embarrassed.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, okay - - well, you already answered that. She might have. I didn't see anything. Now we said that's a lie because now you say you see her in a jacket. When you say I don't see anything, or I don't see her with a jacket in the rest of your statements, we are going to have to mark that a lie on those, too?

A. Yes.

Q. You can't describe that jacket at all, though. You don't know where it's at, don't know whether it went to the ankles, can't describe it at all, right?

A. It wasn't very long.

Q. You think about it tonight, and maybe you can come

up with a description tomorrow. Speaking of which, did you bring your driver's license or something to show your age today?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Don't have nothing, right?

A. I know how old I am.

Q. You do?

A. Yeah.

Q. How come you're having so many problems with it in these statements? The one you say I just turned 16, the one you say I’m, 16, the one you say I’m, 17; how come?

A. I think they probably misunderstood when they were retyping out what I had said on tapes.

Q. That's a bad secretary's screwing up again on the typing?

A. I am saying that's a possibility.

Q. Anything is possible. Let's move along. Mr. Herzog says, all right, when you pulled in where was Jay?

A. Standing outside the van waiting for me to get there, garbled.

Q. Lie, right (marking)?

A. Yeah.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, okay, you arrived there in your van. What happened then?

A. I seen Jay and he told me to pull over by the van,

the blue van there, and I pulled over and he opened up my side door and told me to give him a hand, and he put her in the back of my van and then we left. He said to go.

Q. Lie, right (marking)?

A. That didn't happen at the Chautauqua Mall, which is what I believe is where I am saying that took place.

Q. Well, that's where you are saying that took place, but that didn't happen at all, did it?

A. Not at the Chautauqua Hall.

Q. You didn't pull by her van anywhere, did you?

A. I pulled over at the side of the mall - - or the Quality parking lot, and then I - - he did come and open up the side door.

Q. It says here he told me to pull over by her van. You didn't say you pulled over by her van even at the Quality, did you?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. So that's a lie?

A. Yeah.

Q. The blue van was there, and you knew what color her van was, right? If you didn't get it from the police, you certainly got it from the newspapers?

A. I got it because I seen it.

Q. I pulled over and opened up my side door. You didn't pull over and open up your side door, did you?

A. I didn't, not until we got back to the house, no.

Q. (Marking). I will give you a couple more for that because it's all lies. Mr. Herzog says, okay, she was definitely alive at that point in time?

A. Um, um.

Q. But she was gagged?

A. Um, um. I think that's supposed to be uh-huh, but it's um-um.

Q. It's an indication of yes, right?

A. I don't know.

Q. It's all a lie, too, right? She wasn't gagged when she was inside her vehicle at all, right?

A. When she was inside her vehicle in my driveway, that's when he gagged her.

Q. Mr. Herzog then says, what did Jay say to you at that point in time? What did you say?

A. Um, um, I asked him what he was doing, and I asked him who it was, and he told me who it was and said that it was Kathy Wilson, and ah, when he told me that (sic) when I seen the money bag, and he told me that she money [sic] and that he wanted her money.

Q. Let's explore that a tad. I asked him what he was doing, and I asked him who it was, and he told me that it was - - and he said it was Kathy Wilson, and ah, and when he told me that when I seen the money bag, and he told me that she

money (sic] and that she wanted - - that he wanted her money. That's all a lie, right?

A. I don't remember him specifically telling me who it was. He did at one point tell me that, you know, I asked him why he was doing it and stuff and why he did it, and he did at one point tell me all he wanted was her money and get a piece.

Q. That conversation that you related never took place, right?

A. Excuse me?

Q. This conversation you're relating to the police between you and Jay Buckley never took place, right? I asked him what he was doing, and I asked him who it was, and he told me and on and on and on. It never took place, right?

A. I just told you I asked him what he was doing and he did tell me at one time he just wanted her money and a piece.

Q. He wanted her money and a piece? When did he tell you that, Mr. Brown?

A. Well, before we had even left my house, you know, I asked him what are you doing, why are you doing this and all this, and after he had done it, you know, he already raped her and murdered her. That's when he said he just wanted her money and a piece.

Q. He told you that after he had done it? Where were

you located when he told you that?

A. It was just right after we got back up to the van after he came back up the second time from when he walked back down in.

Q. When he gets back to the van after walking back the second time, he tells you, gee, I just wanted to rob her and get a piece, right?

A. That's pretty much what he said, yeah.

Q. Do you think there is a reason why, if that was true, why he just wouldn't have got a piece at your house which would have been more convenient? Had a bed and stuff like that?

A. Well, he was probably not his - - what he intended on doing. I don't know why he did it. I really don't know.

Q. Don't know?

A. He was sick-minded.

Q. Okay. Mr. Herzog says, okay, where was the money bag lying? You said you saw it. Where was it?

A. It was in Jay's hand.

Q. Jay had it in his hand. Was there anything inside of it? Did you see anything inside of it?

A. No.

Q. Is that a lie or the truth?

A. When I first seen it, I didn't see inside it.

Q. He didn't ask you when you first saw it. He said

did you see anything inside the money bag.

A. And it says no.

Q. Is that a lie?

A. Yeah.

Q. (Marking.) Have to be, because you said the other day you saw a receipt in there or something or other, didn’t you?

A. After - - when we stopped and stuff he stuck everything in it, but when he brang it and put it in my van, I didn't see it. I think that's what we are talking about.

Q. Can you describe the bag to me?

A. It was a bluish between a blue and a green.

Q. You notice how we are progressing Mr. Brown, just so we understand. You start out and say it's green, and then you say it's greenish blue, right? Now, you are saying it's bluish. I got a feeling that later on it's going to be blue. Do you think?

A. I don't know.

Q. Distinct possibility, right? You didn't read in the paper anything about the police looking for a blue bank bag, did you, during Kathy Wilson's disappearance?

A. No, I don't believe so.

Q. And nobody who read the paper ever told you or the police never told you, gee, it was a blue bank bag?

A. I don't know. I can't answer that for sure.

Q. Let's go on. Do you know where the bank bag - - do you know where that bag is now?

A. I have a rough idea.

Q. Is that true or a lie?

A. That was - - I had a rough idea of where it might possibly have been.

Q. Mark Kent, is that who you are talking about?

A. That was one of the possibilities.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, we will get to that later. She is now in your van, that van, what I am saying is your van, that is the blue van?

A. My dad's van, yeah.

Q. Okay. She is in your van. What did you do with her van?

A. Left - - I left it there.

Q. That's a lie, right (marking)?

A. Yeah.

Q. At that point in time, okay, where did you go with Kathy Wilson in your vehicle?

A. Uh, out towards here, uh, in Lander.

Q. That's a lie, right?

A. After we had put her back in my van and stuff we came out to Lander is where we wound up, I guess.

Q. After you put her in your van where?

A. From my house.

Q. From your house?

A. Yeah.

Q. You went to Lander from there?

A. Not directly; but that's where we wound up.

Q. You said you went from your house to Ed Foster's house, right?

A. Exactly. That's why I said he didn't go directly to Lander.

Q. Here you're saying we took her from Chautauqua Mall and went towards Lander, right?

A. That's what it said.

Q. You don't say anything in this whole statement about Ed Foster's house. How come?

A. I don't know. No idea.

Q. You are not friends with Ed Foster, are you?

A. Never seen him before in my life.

Q. You don't like the guy, right?

A. I obviously don't got anything against him.

Q. You don't like him, don't got nothing against him. Why lie or why not tell them about Ed Foster's place In this statement?

A. Because I didn't feel it was necessary to involve him. I mean, I obviously - -

Q. You're not really involving Ed Foster by saying we went to his house and put a note on his door and left. That

doesn't involve him. Why don't you tell them about that trip?

A. I just answered your question, because I did not want to involve him.

Q. You did not want to involve Ed Foster. You were trying to protect Ed Foster?

A. As far as I know he didn't have nothing to do with it, so I didn't see no sense in bringing in his name.

Q. You were trying to protect Ed Foster later on when you claimed Ed Foster helped Buckley wipe down the fingerprints and he is the one that gave Buckley the rides from here to there until you changed that story around? Trying to protect him then, too?

A. I wasn't really trying to protect him here. I didn't feel the need to bring his name into it.

Q. Why not? This is a truthful 110 percent truthful statement subject to plea bargain agreement. You're lying all the way through it. Not only are you lying, you are not bringing up stuff you told this jury last Monday. Ed Foster's house, why leave it out?

A. I don't know.

Q. Could it be because the police are suggesting to you that she is kidnapped at Chautauqua, she's brought down to 62, she is taken over to Lander, she is killed. Could it be that they were suggesting that is what happened you don't have Ed Foster in there. You are going by what they are telling

you?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know?

A. No.

Q. Well, let's go on. Okay, you remember the way that you came? What did you say?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Truth or a lie?

A. I don't remember the whole way we came, no.

Q. Mr. Herzog says did you come down 62, the main road? What do you say?

A. I, um, I don't know. We did on part of the road, we came across the little bridge that I pointed out to you that one day but - -

Q. Let's stop there. When they took you across that little bridge, you point to that little bridge and say, oh, yeah, I remember that little bridge, right?

A. There was a little bridge that we had passed the day before we went out there going to New York State, and I told them that was the road right there that we had turned on.

Q. And that's the road you discussed last Monday?

A. A little road with the little bridge, yes.

Q. And that's the one you said I took the police on, right?

A. Yeah.

Q. And are you sure that's the road, and are you sure those are the bridges?

A. Yes, is it, the only - - I am pretty positive.

Q. If one of those bridges is washed out and the road is closed, what are you going to say about that on May 18 1988?

A. I think that's rather impossible I believe.

Q. Okay. Just asking.

A. We didn't drive through a creek.

Q. Why didn't you put the trip to his sister's house and pulling in her driveway and down into the cornfield, why didn't you put that in this statement? Maybe you did, I don't know, but I don't see it right here. How come you took that out of here?

A. I don't know.

Q. You weren't trying to protect Terry, Buckley's sister?

A. No, I don't believe I ever said we pulled into her driveway.

Q. Well, you were talking on last Monday, were you not, about going down Carlsberg Road?

A. Yes.

Q. Pulling in one place and going across the road and pulling in another place and going down towards the gravel pit by the cornfield and et cetera, right?

A. But neither one of those - - his sister doesn't

live in the gravel pit and she doesn't live on the side of the road either.

Q. She lives in that area you were at?

A. In that area, right, but I am saying we didn't pull into a curved driveway.

Q. How come you didn't tell them about that in this statement?

A. I don't know.

Q. Don't know?

A. No.

Q. Who were you trying to protect by not telling them that?

A. I don't know.

Q. Okay. Mr. Herzog says, when you were coming down here, did you still have Kathy Wilson's purse with you? What did you say?
A. Yeah.
Q. At what time did you throw the purse out?
A. On the way back.
Q. Truth or a lie?
A. Lie.
Q. (Marking.) Why did you tell that lie? What does it matter whether or not you throw the purse out on the way down or the way back? What does it matter? Who are trying to protect?

53
A. Nobody.
Q. Why did you have to tell them you threw it outon the way back?
A. I don't know.
Q. Just no reason at all?
A. No.
Q. Excuse me. Then you say, on the - - no, it was on the way there. On the way there? Uh-huh. And then Mr. Herzog says, okay, who threw the purse out? You say what?
A. Jay did. Well, I threw it out, Jay told me.
Q. Jay did, Well, I threw it out. Jay told me to.
Q. You are saying there you threw the purse out, aren't you?
A. Yep.
Q. Why are you saying that?
A. I don't know.
Q. Is that a lie (marking)?
A. Yeah.
Q. Jay told me to throw the purse out, and I threw the purse out. Then later on and in almost all your statements you say Jay threw the purse out. What could it possibly mattered who threw the purse out of your van?
A. I don't know.
Q. You have no idea?
A. Nope.

54
Q. You think the "I don't know's" would surpass the lies if we added them up?
A. I don't know.
Q. Who was driving at that time?
A. Jay.
Q. Is that true or a lie?
A. It's a lie.
Q. Why did you tell that lie? What does it matter who is driving the van, you or Jay (marking)? You have different people driving the van, either you or him driving the van during the day anyway. What does it matter who is driving the van?
A. I don't know.
Q. I don't know. No Idea?
A. Like I said before, I explained to you before, I have no reason why I told any lies really, I mean.
Q. Is it possible Mr. Brown, and just possible, possible, that you're making up a story here, complete makeup out of your head, fantasy?
A. It's not a complete makeup. All the - - most of what I said happened in here happened, but it’s, you know, I just changed a few things around.
Q. Anybody can say Jay Buckley murdered Kathy Wilson. Anybody can say it. Question is whether you know the details to prove it. You're having a rough time with all the details.

55
aren't you?
A. I wasn't having a rough time, no.
Q. But you can't understand, you just don't know why you are telling these lies, why Jay is driving, why you are throwing out the purse?
A. I feel I already explained myself as far as why I told lies.
Q. I don't think you have. You said I don't know. Where was she? Let me ask you first, he says where were you? It's right after he says who was driving at that time.
A. On the rider's side.
Q. That's a lie, right (marking)?
A. Yeah.
Q. Where was she?
A. In the back.
Q. That's a truth, right?
A. Right.
Q. Lying on the floor in your van?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. You didn't say she was lying on the floor in your van because he told you that, didn't he?
A. No.
Q. Mr. Herzog says, and threw it out. What you threw it up over the top like that? And I suspect that he is motioning that you threw it from the passenger side of the

56
window over the top of the van like that. And you say what?
A. Excuse me.
Q. And then he says, again, did you throw the purse like that, and I assume he is motioning outside the window and up over the van. What did you say?
A. Just turned up about like that, started to get rid of the stuff and then started throwing it out.
Q. So other stuff went out before or after the purse, right?
A. I guess, it says, uh-huh.
Q. And you say uh-huh again indicating yes. Did other stuff go out of the purse? Was other stuff tossed out of the purse out the window other than just the purse?
A. I really don't know.
Q. Did you lie there?
A. Yeah, I suppose.
Q. (Marking.) You didn't know at that time that the purse had been recovered with all its contents in it, did you?
A. I never went through it. I don't know exactly what was taken out of it or not.
Q. And the reason you changed this statement from then on is because you are saying - - first, you say in this statement he (sic) (sic) threw it out on the way back, and then you said, you changed that, that he (sic) threw it out on the way there, and then you realized from Mr. Herzog showing you this, that the

57
van coming down 62 on the way there was on the other side of the road, and they found the purse clear across the other side of the roadway, and from the passenger side you got to be whipping it across the whole van and landing on the berm on the other side of the roadway, and it doesn't make much sense, does it? So when that was explained to you, that's why you changed it. That's why you have Jay Buckley throwing the purse out from then on and you driving, right?
A. No.
Q. Because it's quite a toss going down 62 one way and whipping the purse over a van and having it land on the berm clear on the other side of the roadway?
A. I imagine it's quite a toss, but it's not why I said that.
Q. And what you're explaining here as to how it got there and also throwing the contents of the purse out piece by piece or whatever is all a lie, and it doesn't make much sense, and you think about it and say gee, that doesn't make much sense, and the next statement you change it all, don't you?
A. First of all, it doesn't say here nothing about contents of the purse and - -
Q. So other stuff went out before or after the purse did, right? And uh-huh.
A. That don't say nothing about contents of the

58
purse.
Q. Okay. Let's go on. Herzog said, what all was thrown out? And you say what?
A. To my knowledge, he threw out some - - like a - - when he - - before he had me throw the purse out, he went through it before I even got to the mall. There was a little odds and ends lying around that he tossed out on the way.
Q. That's all a lie, right?
A. Yes, yes, that is.
Q. (Marking.) Why did you lie about that? Why are you lying about odds and ends being tossed out on the way?
A. Well, there were all the way out there, I mean, different things had been tossed out. I wasn't really lying.
Q. What?
A. Beer.
Q. You just said that statement was lie. What was tossed out? Other than the purse, what got tossed out of that vehicle?
A. Beer cans and a bottle.
Q. Well, you know he is not talking about beer cans and a bottle, Mr. Brown. He is talking about your van and you're riding down and tossing a purse out and stuff belonging to Kathy Wilson. Don't put us on Carlsberg Road. You are not even talking about Carlsberg Road.
A. You just asked me what else was thrown out of the

59
van.
Q. I am asking what was thrown out of the purse, what else was thrown out that belonged to Kathy Wilson. Anything other than the purse?
A. I don’t know.
Q. You are telling them here you know, aren’t you? Little odds and ends laying around on the way, we tossed it out along with the purse?
A. That’s what it says, I guess.
Q. It’s a lie. Why did you tell that lie?
A. I don’t know.
Q. No idea?
A. No.
Q. So as you were driving, he is throwing bits and pieces out the window? And You say what?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. That is an indication of yes?
A. I am not sure if that’s just saying um-um. I am trying to think, or uh-huh. I don’t know. I don’t know.
Q. So now that um-um that you are saying is really not a yes or not an indication of an affirmative answer. It’s really just you’re trying to think, right? Think up that story, right?
A. I said I don’t know what it is.
Q. You don’t know what it is?

60
A. No.
Q. I thought we just established, back here it says other stuff went out before or after the purse, right? And you go um-um. And back on the other pages where you said um um, you're indicating a response as being yes? Should we play the tape and see whether it says um-um or whether it says um?
A. Do what you want. I don't think it's necessary.
Q. It's not necessary, Mr. Brown, because you're lying all through this. You know that and I know that.
A. It's not necessary to go through each one of these statements. I mean I admitted making several lies. I don't see what the point is you're trying to get across.
Q. What my point is and what I am trying to get across is, Mr. Brown? You don't see it yet? When you see it, raise your hand, okay?
A. Yep.
Q. But as he is driving he is flipping them out. But you didn't throw anything out until the purse was thrown? What did you say?
A. I guess that's uh-huh.
Q. Uh-huh, That's a lie, too, right? Mr. Herzog says, when you threw the purse out shortly thereafter did you make a left-hand turn (marking)?
A. It says I believe it was a right-hand turn.

61
Q. A right-hand turn, but you ended up on Lindell Road?
A. Where she was found, yeah.

Q. Okay. The time you ended up on Lindell Road was what approximate time?

A. Quarter to 6:00 maybe.

Q. Lie or the truth?

A. I'd say that's a lie.

Q. That's a lie. why did you tell him that lie?

A. I don't know.

Q. (Marking.) Didn't you think the police would ever go back to Brenda Snow and your family and say, what time is Michael Brown home May 18th?

A. I never gave that too much of a thought.

Q. Never gave that too much of a thought. Did you think they would all lie for you or what?

A. No.

Q. Okay, Mr. Herzog says, okay, and you say is garbled, garbled, and Mr. Herzog says, when you arrived at Lindell Road, both of you got out of the vehicle, you and Jay, and you say what?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And Mr. Herzog says then what happened?

A. Then we got her out of the van. He told me to get her out, and I couldn't, you know, do it by myself so he gave

me a hand and got her out.

Q. Is that the truth or a lie?

A. I didn't get her out, so that would be a lie, I guess.

Q. He didn't tell you to get her out, did he (marking) ?

A. No.

Q. What does it matter how she gets out of the van?

A. I don't know.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Then he was like standing - - she was standing. I was kind of standing off to the left-hand side and we starting walking down, garbled, and I asked him what are we going to do, and he didn't say nothing. He just said start walking, so we started walking, and we got in maybe five, I don't know, maybe ten feet, and then he took the shirt, like a part of a shirt that was wrapped around her leg so she could walk a little better.

Q. Truth or a lie?

A. It wasn't a shirt, no.

Q. (Marking.) Right. You are saying there she was tied up with a shirt around her legs and he unloosened the shirt so she could walk a little better, right?

A. I guess that is what it's saying.

Q. And that's a lie, right? It's just not a lie

because you are saying something different now. I mean, it's a lie, right?

A. It's a lie. There was not a shirt on her legs, no.

Q. Why tell that lie?

A. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe he did cut the bale, I guess you could say bale or twine.

Q. I know what your latest is, Mr. Brown.

A. Okay.

Q. Was it down around her ankles when he took it off?

A. Up a little closer, well, yeah, kind of kept the knees together.

Q. That's a lie, right?

A. It wasn't very far up, no.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, okay, is there a shotgun involved at this time?

A. Yeah.

Q. That's a lie, right (marking)?

A. Yeah.

Q. We will mark up two. Who had it?

A. Well, I can't say he - - you mean when we got out of the van? Yeah, Herzog.

Q. Herzog says, yeah. And you say what?

A. Oh, he had it. I thought you meant on the way out there. Nobody really had it. It was just sitting there.

Q. What kind of shotgun was it?

A. A 12-gauge, just a 12-gauge.

Q. Was it a sawed-off shotgun?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. The one that cut off the barrel and the stock?

A. Uh-huh, about two feet long maybe.

Q. And after he cut off the bindings or took off the bindings, then what happened?

A. She took off to the right.

Q. Now, here again, the police tell you, after he cut off the bindings. You are not picking that up and you are not going to use that later on in these statements to say these bindings were cut, are you?

A. No.

Q. Okay. And you're walking down a trail and she took off to the right? As you're walking down the trail she took off to the right. That’s what it says.

A. At first it says she took off to the right, and Herzog says as you're walking down the trail she took off to the right? Uh-huh. And Herzog says how far did she go off the trail? And then I say I am not very good at distance, but probably ten feet.

Q. Is that true?

A. She did take off to the right-hand side.

Q. Probably ten feet?

A. It could have been. I am not very good at distance. I don't know.

Q. And Herzog says, what happened?

A. Jay told her to stop. He had the gun, kind of was one of them guns that come down, you know, what I am saying and then the rest of it is illegible. I can't see what it is.

Q. Herzog says, yes. And you say what?

A. And then he told her to stop, and then he clicked it up like that, and then she stopped because he was kind of going after her and threw her down.

Q. Let's explore that a little bit. You are saying now are you not, that Jay Buckley has a shotgun in his hands, and when Kathy Wilson breaks to run, he pulls the shotgun up to her, clicks it at her and says, stop, and she stops. Is that what you are saying?

A. I believe it says when she stops was when he threw her down.

Q. Brown, he told her to stop and then he clicked it up like that, and then she stopped because she (sic) was kind of going after her and threw her down. You're talking about a shotgun there and raising a shotgun up at her and telling her to stop?

A. Maybe. I really don't know. I don't know what I mean by clicked. It's possible. I don't remember.

Q. And then he clicked it up. What are you talking

about when you say and then he clicked it up?

A. I don't know.

Q. Told her to stop and then he clicked it up?

A. I really don't know.

Q. And then instead of shooting her he runs after her and throws her down, right?

A. That's what happened, right.

Q. That's a lie as far as he clicked it up and (marking) - -

A. Yeah. I don't know what that clicked is supposed to mean.

Q. And Mr. Herzog says he threw her down on the ground? And you say what?

A. Did he say anything to her?

Q. And you say what?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Did he say anything to her?

A. Very faintly told her if she tried to run again he would kill her.

Q. Is that true?

A. Yeah.

Q. That's true?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. And Mr. Herzog says, all right, now, knowing, speak a little louder, now he said what?

A. He said that if you run, if you do that again I am going to kill you.

Q. Herzog says did he pick her up?

A. Uh-huh, yes.

Q. That true?

A. Yes.

Q. He stood her back up? Picked her back up? And then you say yes. And then Herzog says then what happened?

A. Then he walked down to I guess you would call it like a ravine and right to the edge of it, and he started to take a little bit more, basically all of the bindings and clothes that I remembered, he took some of those off and told me to take off her blouse.

Q. That true or false?

A. That's - - most of it's true.

Q. What part is false?

A. Once we got to the ravine all she had on, you know, as far as that was tying her was just the shirt around her arms, and he did tell me to take off her blouse and bra.

Q. When you say he started to . . . basically all of her bindings and clothes, that's a lie?

A. He didn't take off the shirt until after most of her buttons on her blouse was undone.

Q. Did he take off her shirt, or did you take off her shirt?

A. The shirt that was wrapping her wrists together is what I am talking about.

Q. Oh.

A. I would say most of that is - - most of that is true.

Q. Didn't you say last Monday there was no shirt on her wrists? She was tied with twine?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. You didn't?

A. I didn't.

Q. You said last Monday it was a shirt, she was tied with a shirt?

A. That's what it was.

Q. I thought I distinctly heard you tell Mr. Massa she was tied with her hands in front of her with twine, and I lead her into those woods?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Well - -

THE COURT: Mr. Smith, court recesses for 15 minutes.

(Brief recess taken.)

BY MR. SMITH:

Q. Let's go back to Page 205, Mr. Brown. I believe we were there where Mr. Herzog said, you did take off her blouse, yes?

A. Eventually, yes.

Q. And you unbuttoned her blouse?

A. Yes.

Q. Right. And basically - - well, let me ask you this. The statement that you gave us yesterday basically is true and correct?

A. From that point on, yeah.

Q. Is that true?

A. No.

Q. It's a lie (marking). From that point on, okay, and in its entirety? And what do you say?

A. Yeah.

Q. That's a lie, too (marking)?

A. Yeah.

Q. I have one more question about the statement, time being somewhere in the vicinity of 6:00 in the evening, 6:30. And you say what?

A. 6:00.

Q. That's a lie, right (marking), 6:00? Why did you remove or did he remove her binding around her mouth, the black tape? What did you say.

A. It came all the way like by the tape, the tape or whatever, I am pretty positive was the tape. It come from like it come out, it come down and like you - - I don't even know what it was. It was like a material that went from there

down, and as you take off the material it come down around her shoulders and it's garbled.

Q. What are you trying to say there?

A. How the blouse eventually came off, I guess.

Q. He is asking you about the black tape, the binding around her mouth, and you say it came all the way like a tape. I am pretty positive it was a tape. It doesn't seem like you're sure if it was electrical tape there. It came from like - - it came out, came down, then like, I don't even know what it was like it was like a material that went from there down, and as you take off the material it came down around her shoulders. Are you talking about the tape or are you talking about the blouse?

A. I don't know.

Q. His next question is, why did he take her binding off from her mouth? You got to appreciate where I come from now, all right? And you say what?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And Mr. Herzog says, you're out in the middle of the woods, It's 6:00 in the evening. You have a woman and two men standing there, two men in quotation marks, standing there. The woman is not going to beat up two guys and get away. You take off the binding and she can scream, right? Common sense tells you you take off the bindings for one reason, so she can perform oral sex, right?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Is that the reason the bindings were taken off her mouth?

A. No.

Q. That's a lie, right (marking)?

A. Yes.

Q. It seems like Mr. Herzog is trying to tell you there that you got two men standing there, you got a woman standing there. She is under your power, and you should take the binding off her mouth so she can perform oral sex because she can't do it with the binding on, and you agree with that. That sounds like a good story to you, right?

A. It's a logical reason, I guess, is why I agreed.

Q. It's sounded pretty logical, we will go with that one. And later on when he says he is in the back of the van with her, are you sure he didn't take the tape off her there and she didn't perform oral sex with him in the back of the van while you're on your way to the crime scene? You had no problem agreeing with him when he said that in a later statement?

A. I don't know.

Q. So Mr. Herzog says, okay. And you say what?

A. He took off the mouth - - he took off the mouth deal before he even - - he made me even take off her blouse.

Q. Is that true or not?

A. That's true.

Q. That's true. What's the next one? Well, let me read it. Did at any time oral sex occur?

A. No, it didn't.

Q. Is that the truth?

A. That's true.

Q. Was she asked or threatened?

A. He told her to give him head.

Q. That true or a lie?

A. At one time he did.

Q. At one time he did?

A. He said something about her giving him head.

Q. When? When did he say that to her?

A. I heard him mention it when we are on the way out there when he was in the back of the van. It was before we turned onto like the road going to Akeley.

Q. You just remembered that other statement I told you about where you're talking about him having oral sex with her in the back of the van?

A. I just made mention about it. I think that is why they asked me if it didn't happen in the van. It didn't. It never did happen, but he just mentioned it.

Q. But you are saying on the way down in the van he told her to give him some head. That's what you say here, but on Monday and Tuesday you didn't say anything about that at

all, and you say the tape wasn't removed from her mouth until you got to the crime scene. How is she going to give oral sex with tape on her mouth?

A. He just made mention of it.

Q. You are saying Jay Buckley said he told her to give him head, and you just said he told her that on the way to the crime scene in the back of the van. Isn't that what you said?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the truth?

A. That's what I said.

Q. And my question is, one, how come you didn't mention that Monday and Tuesday last week, and two, how come you said how is she going to give him oral sex if she has tape on her mouth?

A. It would be impossible because the tape wasn't removed until after we got to the crime scene.

Q. So why would he ask her if she as (sic) got tape on her mouth, number one, and two, why didn't you mention that last Monday or Tuesday?

A. I thought I did mention it, number two, and number one, I don't know why he did say that.

Q. And here we are on the eighth or ninth statement or so and you never mention it at all in any of your previous statements and is it just coincidence you mention that right

after Mr. Herzog says two men standing there, common sense tells you you take off the bindings for one reason, so she can perform oral sex? Is it just a coincidence you mention it right after Herzog brings it up for the first time you're mentioning it?

A. No.

Q. And you are saying Monday and Tuesday you told the jury that, right? When you were driving down and he is in the back of the van he asked for oral sex?

A. I believe I mentioned it. I am not positive, but I believe I did.

Q. What day is this trial, eight? You keep track?

A. I don't.

Q. Seven? We are on day seven?

A. You got me, I don't know.

Q. Tell the jury why on day seven of this trial you never looked at Jay Buckley in the face?

A. I looked at him In the face several times.

Q. You have been avoiding eye contact with him for seven days, haven't you?

A. I looked at him. Why would I want to look at him? He disgusts me.

Q. That's why you haven't been looking at him?

A. I looked at him a couple times.

Q. It doesn't have anything to do with you telling a

lie that he could go to the death chamber for or anything?

A. I said I looked at him a couple times. Not a whole lot to look at.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, okay, now wait a minute. Slow down. Speak up. What did you just say now? He is getting excited about this, isn't he? What do you say?

A. I said he told her to give some head.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, okay, all right. She did not?

A. No.

Q. What did he do in retaliation, if he did anything? What did you say?

A. That's when he got pissed off and threw her down.

Q. Did he throw her down in the back of the van, Mr. Brown?

A. No.

Q. You just told us that he said that Mr. Buckley asked her for some head when they were in the back of the van driving to the crime scene. Here you say, right after Mr. Herzog asked you did he do anything in retaliation when she wouldn't do that, you say he got pissed off and threw her down. Sounds like to me we are talking about the crime scene, not the back of the van.

A. That's what it sounds like.

Q. Would that be a lie?

A. Yeah.

Q. (Marking.) You didn't make that lie up based on what Mr. Herzog is telling you about retaliation and about oral sex and everything else?

A. No.

Q. Mr. Herzog then says, but at no time during this whole thing did you have any sexual contact with her? And you say what?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. That's the truth, right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I agree with you. Did you ever touch her breasts?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Did you ever kiss her breasts?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Mr. Aranyos says, Michael, like he said, it doesn't make a difference. And you say what?

A. Oh, I realize that totally.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, let's go back in time, knowing where Mr. Aranyos is coming from or where he wants to go, I am trying to speed this thing along. Mr. Aranyos must have an appointment that day or something. Did Jay William Buckley ever tell you how or where he kidnapped Kathy Wilson? What do you say?

A. He told me he picked her up from the Four Coins or Falconer Quality. I honestly don't remember which he said.

Q. That's a lie, right (marking)?

A. Yeah.

Q. Did you ever go back to the Chautauqua Mall later that night?

A. No, I dropped him off.

Q. That's a lie, right?

A. Yes.

Q. You dropped him off at the Chautauqua Mall?

A. I dropped him off by the probation building in Jamestown.

Q. Where is that in relation to Mister Donut?

A. Right across the road.

Q. Okay. Did you go back to the Quality, to the Chautauqua Mall?

A. That's where he was going.

Q. He was going back there? Why was he going back there? Did he tell you?

A. No, he didn't. He said he had to go back to the Chautauqua Mall, back to her van.

Q. He said he had to get back to her van. He had the keys to her van?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Did you see those keys?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. Then you go on.

A. The reason I didn't take him all the way back to the mall is like we stopped on the way back and got cigarettes and stuff, and I told him I had to get back home and, garbled, my mother had to go to the store until I got back home then.

Q. That's all a lie, right?

A. No.

Q. It's not?

A. No.

Q. The reason I didn't go all the way back to the mall - - you are saying now you went to the mall, aren't you?

A. It doesn't say that here that I went to the mall.

Q. The reason I didn't take him all the way back to the mall. Didn't you take him back to the mall later that night?

A. But I am saying I thought you meant it said it here.

Q. You are saying you didn't take him back to the mall, right?

A. Yes.

Q. So that would be a lie?

A. Yeah.

Q. We stopped on the way back and got cigarettes and stuff. Did you stop on the way back and get cigarettes and stuff?

A. Yeah, I got a pack of cigarettes and a pack of

chewing gum.

Q. What did Jay Buckley get?

A. I went in the store by myself.

Q. You went in the store by yourself? Where was he?

A. Outside. He had to use the phone. He said he did anyway.

Q. You left him there or what?

A. No, I took him down into town.

Q. Took him where?

A. Down by probation and Mister Donut's.

Q. And you left him there, right?

A. Yeah.

Q. And you told him I had to get back home. My mother had to go to the store until I got back home.

A. I don't know what that is supposed to mean.

Q. How do you know your mother has to go to the store and get spaghetti sauce if you never saw your mother all day?

A. Like I said, I don't know what that is supposed to mean.

Q. That would be a lie, right (marking)? Whatever it's supposed to mean, it's not true?

A. Yeah, that's true. I don't know what it's supposed to mean.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, what time did you get back home?

A. 6:30.

Q. Truth or a lie?

A. I'd say approximately probably around that time somewhere.

Q. Somewhere around at that time, so that's the truth, you got there at 6:30?

A. I didn't say that.

Q. Well, you know, all through these statements you don't have any problem at all telling the police what time things happened and you're having a real problem on the stand telling me what happened. Do you have an explanation for that?

A. Yes, because they took an approximation, you know, and let it go at that.

Q. Well, was it approximately 6:30?

A. It could have been around at that time. That's basically what I told them, it, could have been around that time, and they accepted it.

Q. It could have been 5:30 like Brenda Snow says, too?

A. Like I said, I don't know what time. It could have been around that time though.

Q. Mr. Herzog said, you left at 4:36 from work and you were back home at 6:30. In that time period Kathy Wilson was taken to Lindell Road where she was raped by Jay Buckley and also murdered right? You say what?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. That's a lie, right (marking)?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Did they indicate to you later on gee, we don't think he can do all this stuff you are saying be is doing between 4:36 and 6:30 that evening, concerning where you went to and the locations involved? Did the police indicate to you we have a problem with that time? We need more time in this day, Michael?

A. I don't really remember what they did say, but I knew there was obviously not enough time in that short period.

Q. Did the police indicate to you they checked it out and gee, there is not enough time?

A. All they ever mentioned about checking out was the time I guess to go from Falconer to the Chautauqua Mall, but other than that I don't remember anything else they mentioned about time.

Q. Would it surprise you to learn they checked the times and the police report said you drove from one location to another location and did the mileage and the time check. They were investigating your story. Would that surprise you to learn they were doing that?

A. It would be a wise thing to do. It wouldn't surprise me.

Q. You are saying they never come back to you and

said, gee, Michael, you can't do what you are saying you did in that short time period?

A. Like I said, I don't really remember exactly what they did say. I knew it would have been impossible because - -

Q. Well, if you knew it was impossible and you knew they would check it out, why do you tell them that? Don't you know they were going to figure out you're lying?

A. I knew.

Q. What did you think would happen when they did?

A. Well, I don't know. I kind of figured that, you know, possibly when they came back, they might have offered me, you know, maybe a better deal. I don't know.

Q. Better deal, so you're holding out for a better deal so you're going to lie to get a better deal? That's the latest story?

A. Not solely.

Q. You never got a better deal, did you? You pled guilty a couple weeks ago to the plea bargain agreement the same similar charges, carrying the same penalty, seven to 14 years maximum statutory?

A. Yes.

Q. Never got any better deal out of them?

A. No, I didn't, but I - - they told me - - I don't know how I want to put this - - basically either now or never, you know, they only gave me this. We are going to give you

one last chance to tell us everything, otherwise we are pulling your plea bargain.

Q. They told you that every time you made a new statement, didn't they? It's now or never. We’ve have had it with you, Michael. You have been lying to us all along. It's now or never. Tell us the truth today or you aren't going to get the plea bargain agreement and we are going to pull it and you're going to get charged with murder One. They told you that all along, didn't they?

A. They were pretty serious the last time they told me.

Q. When was that?

A. Just a while ago. I don't know.

Q. Months? Years? Weeks? Days?

A. I would say probably last couple times they told me actually, so a couple months ago or so. I don't know.

Q. When you entered your plea in this court two weeks ago, okay, the judge told you, did he not, that your plea could be revoked. You haven't been sentenced on that plea yet?

A. That's right.

Q. He told you, did he not, that your plea could be revoked if the Commonwealth felt you were lying at this trial, right?

A. Yes.

Q. So if Mr. Buckley is not convicted or if the Commonwealth at their discretion feels you're lying, you can face Murder One, right? They can still pull your plea and charge you with Murder One?

A. Kind of, yes.

Q. Do you think the Commonwealth is going to feel over the last seven days you have been truthful, told the jury the truth?

A. They know I have been truthful.

Q. Everything you have said to them in truth?

A. Yes.

Q. Mister Donut is no farther from the back of that wall from Quality Market?

A. I said twice the size of the courtroom but it isn't very far, no.

Q. We looked at the map and marked it on the map and the jury can see that, right?

A. Yeah. It's probably a five-minute walk to get from Mister Donut's to Quality maybe. I don't know.

Q. Did you ever go back to the crime scene?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Do you know if Jay ever went back to the crime scene?

A. I believe so.

Q. Truth or a lie?

A. True.

Q. What makes you think he went back to the crime scene?

A. I know he did Saturday.

Q. How do you know he did Saturday?

A. Shelly Anderson brang him out there, I guess.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Well, he told me when I seen him at the Silver Dollar.

Q. You saw him at the Silver Dollar and he said Shelly Anderson took him to the crime scene?

A. He said he had Shelly bring him out there.

Q. What did he tell you exactly?

A. Just that he seen the cops following me, and he was walking through the field or the woods - - I can't remember exactly what he said - - and he says I got ahold of Shelly and she took me back out there.

Q. This is the guy you were wired, tried to have him arrested?

A. Yes.

Q. And Saturday he is telling you Shelly Anderson took me to the crime scene today, right?

A. I didn't call the cops on him before that Saturday.

Q. He had no problem telling you all that, right?

When he knows you're wearing a wire. He feels you're cooperating with the police?

A. He didn't know that. He made mention, he thought I might have been, but he didn't know that.

Q. What does the next statement say? When did he go back to the crime scene?

A. I believe it was the day after.

Q. Truth or a lie?

A. It's a lie.

Q. You are saying here he went back the day after. Just said he want back Saturday (marking). You are saying that's now a lie when you told him (sic) he went back the day after? Why did you tell them that?

A. I don't know. I have no idea.

Q. No idea?

A. No.

Q. You also told him (sic) he stole your van the next day to go back to the crime scene. That was a lie, too?

A. The van did come up missing, and I did tell him (sic) it was him that stole it.

Q. Did you ever talk to Shelly Anderson about Jay Buckley going back to the crime scene?

A. I believe it was that night.

Q. Saturday night?

A. I believe so.

Q. You talked to Shelly Anderson on Saturday night, which would have been May 21st?

A. Yeah, it was like the day before she had taken off.

Q. If I told you the last time Shelly said she talked to you was on Friday, that would be wrong? You talked to her Saturday night?

A. Saturday night.

Q. What did she tell you?

A. She didn't really say a whole lot. There was a lot of people there when we were talking.

Q. What did she tell you specifically?

A. Basically all she said was that she had gotten questioned by the cops and something like the heat is coming down or something like that and I am getting out of here is basically all she said.

Q. Did she tell you she took Jay Buckley to the crime scene or not?

A. I can't honestly say that. I don't really know for sure.

Q. That you don't know for sure?

A. I can't say for sure.

Q. Here you are telling, I believe the day after you (sic) went back to the crime scene.

A. That's what it says, yes.

Q. That's a lie?

A. I don't know. He could have went back the day after.

Q. Do you know what he did when he got back to the crime scene?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Is that truth or a lie?

A. I didn't know for sure, no.

Q. What did you think he did?

A. Finished taking care of business.

Q. What is taking care of business? What would have been unfinished there to do - - left to do to take care of business?

A. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe he forgot something out there.

Q. What did you think he forgot?

A. I don't know. I am saying maybe.

Q. Assuming he had went back to the crime scene and assuming he had forgotten something don't you think he would have picked that muscle T-shirt up if he left it there?

A. I don't know.

Q. But you told us the muscle T-shirt was taken with you when you left the crime scene in the van?

A. I said I had taken it up to the van, yeah.

Q. And you said it was black, and in your initial

statement you never said anything about a muscle T-shirt. It wasn't until four or five down the road you started mentioning a muscle T-shirt. Did the police tell you hey, we found a muscle T-shirt at the crime scene?

A. I don't believe so, no.

(Item marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 34.)

Q. Mr. Brown, I am going to show you what has been marked for identification purposes as Defendant's Exhibit No. 34.

(Off-the-record discussion.)

I will show you what has been marked for identification purposes as Defendant's Exhibit 34, which is a partial T-shirt. Does that look like anything at all like the one Jay Buckley had on that day?

A. No.

Q. Doesn't look black either, does it?

A. That don't look black.

Q. It's also just a partial piece of cloth, right?

A. That's what it looked like, a piece.

Q. And the piece or the black shirt that you're talking about was intact when you put it in the van, right? It wasn't cut up in pieces?

A. No.

Q. So this would be the wrong T-shirt, right?

A. It's not the black one.

Q. Okay. Let's go back to no, he never told you. We are talking about what he did when he went back to the crime scene. You said you don't know what he did. Herzog said, no, he never told you? And you say what?

A. No, but he took the van and told me he went back.

Q. That would be a lie?

A. Um, I don't really remember if he had told me he took the van or how I found out that it was him that took the van. I think he told me at one time, but I don't know.

Q. Did he tell you he went back?

A. He told me he went back, yes.

Q. On that day, that he took your van and went back to the crime scene on the day after? Did be tell you that?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Why did you tell the police he did (marking)?

A. I don't know, I figured he took the van. What would he need it for besides go back out there? I don't know.

Q. You said here he told me he went back.

A. I know that he did tell me Saturday, but I don't know why I told them this day.

Q. Herzog says, took your van? And you say what?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And Herzog says, okay, so in other words, Michael Brown, what you are telling us now, if physical evidence comes back that Kathy Wilson's hair is found in your van, you're

explanation is true and correct because she was in your van, right?

A. Right, yes.

Q. If hair comes back that was Jay William Buckley's hair that was found in her van, that's true and correct because Jay William Buckley was in her van, right?

A. Yes.

Q. You were never in her van?

A. No. I wasn't.

Q. Is that true you were never in her van?

A. That's true.

Q. So your hair can't come back from Kathy Wilson's van?

A. No.

Q. All right, okay, and that's when Michael Povlick (spelled phonetically) came to take it, it was like big deal, you know - - or I'm sorry, that's you. Mr. Herzog says, all right, okay. And you say what?

A. That's like when Mike Povlick came in to take it, it was like big deal, you know.

Q. And Herzog says take your hair?

A. Yes, he took hair samples. It don't matter because I knew he wouldn't find them within five or ten feet from her.

Q. It would have been no big deal to you if he took

hair samples no matter what because you knew you weren't there, right?

A. No, that's not right.

Q. No? Okay, Mike, why until this point in time haven't you told us this?

A. I honestly don't know. I don't know. Like I said, I tried to get Jamestown Police that Saturday.

Q. So that Saturday you tried to get the Jamestown Police and tried to tell them all this stuff you are telling Mr. Herzog here today on December 22, 1989?

A. I was hoping I wouldn't have to tell them nothing. I was hoping they could follow us and boom.

Q. If I told you you gave three statements to the Jamestown Police Department, and in every one of those statements you denied any knowledge of the Kathy Wilson disappearance, any knowledge, any participation that Jay Buckley did it, or anything else, that would all be a lie because you were trying to get the Jamestown Police that Saturday and tell them everything, right?

A. Like I said, I was hoping I wouldn't have to tell them nothing. I just figured they would follow us and, you know.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, but yesterday Michael, did you not understand the deal? Did you not feel that that's the way - - did you not think we were doing (sic) to have all this

information? And Mr. Aranyos says, do you think they wouldn't honor the deal? Did you trust them? Did you believe them? That's what he is asking. There had to be some reason why you didn't come clean yesterday. And you say what?

A. Because I didn't feel like saying nothing. I just didn't feel comfortable with the lady in there. It was rather embarrassing, you know.

Q. And that's a lie, isn't it?

A. Well, that's when that lady was in there that - - I guess she is a stenographer or shorthand or whatever, that's the reason I didn't tell them everything that day.

Q. That's the reason you lied that day, because of the lady stenographer?

A. Well, I had thought about coming clean with them, and then I didn't, and that was the reason, I guess.

Q. Why did you lie on this day? There wasn't a lady stenographer there then, was there?

A. I don't think to.

Q. Why did you lie on this day then?

A. I just - - I don't know. I just didn't trust, nobody I guess.

Q. You didn't say you didn't trust anybody. They are asking you there - - as a matter of fact, you didn't get the idea you didn't trust them because they are saying that before they ask you that question, did you?

A. I told them a hundred times I didn't trust them.

Q. But you said - - you didn't say, gee, I just didn't trust the police yesterday, you know, and stuff like that, which is what Mr. Aranyos suggests. You say instead, because I didn't like telling everything. There is a lady here and I didn't want to be embarrassed.

(Off-the-record discussion.)

Q. That's what you said in here. It's not that I didn't trust them, it's that I am embarrassed. There is a lady in there. That's what you said?

A. That's what it says.

Q. That truth or a lie?

A. I already told you.

Q. Mr. Herzog says, okay, Michael, we are going to end this statement shortly. Keep in mind what we are going to talk about, Mr. Aranyos says, all right. I want to put one thing on the tape. You might want to ask him with respect to the bank bag or something like that. Put it on the tape, Michael.

I appreciate your cooperation first of all, and again, based on what I have been able to ascertain based on what Trooper Herzog has, it's appears now you're at least telling the truth. I am going to be unavailable next week, which I have explained to you. I am going to put it on tape right now I have no objection with you cooperating with the

Pennsylvania State Police in their investigation assisting them in getting any physical evidence whatsoever in my absence. I do not desire, though, that you divulge any new facts or evidence and additional statements other than what you have already given them yesterday and today outside of my presence.

For example, if they request your assistance in obtaining the shoes, the bank bag, a knife, any physical evidence, feel free to go with them with my consent, as I have indicated on this tape. Under no circumstances are you to go beyond any questioning. You should respectfully deny until such time I can be present. And you say what? And you say what on the top of the next page?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And I think that's the understanding with Trooper Herzog at least for the time being. And Trooper Herzog says all right. And you say what?

A. I'd be more than willing to go with him.

Q. And Mr. Aranyos says, I know you will. Now it's on tape, it's on the record just in case there are any problems. And Mr. Herzog says I am going to tell you we reached a point here where we have a mutual understanding between us of honesty and sincerity. I told you before that nobody else will be involved in this. I am telling you that we will talk again. I don't want you talking - - I don't want

you talking to any other policemen, all right? Your attorney tells you not to and I am telling you my feelings and you talk to me and you talk to me alone, okay? And Mr. Aranyos says, Michael I have also indicated you are not going to discuss this matter with any other member of my office, just me. No one else is to know about this including family members or any other individuals are not to know anything about it, what we have done yesterday today or any time. And you say what?

A. I was just going to tell you it doesn't have to be on the tape, I don't assume, but with that - - but with that knife there I thought about it last night, and now that I thought about having to tell you, I just thought that I am almost positive I have a few ideas where it's possible, but I have known - - I have seen it there.

Q. But I have now seen it there?

A. Something like that.

Q. What are you trying to say there, Michael? You're trying to tell them you can locate the murder weapon, aren't you?

A. I told him it's possible. I had a few ideas where it's possible.

Q. A few ideas where it's possible it might be, right?

A. Exactly.

Q. Mr. Aranyos says, let me put this on tape. I have no objection to a consent to search in allowing the police to go in with you to look for that knife. And you say what?

A. John wanted to come and take me up there and stuff.

Q. And when you say John, you're referring to Trooper Herzog, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Aranyos says, you would consent? Again, I would give you permission as your attorney to consent to a search with Trooper Herzog and preferably not a whole ton of police officers. You say what?

A. Is it - - I mean I understand it because - - I understand it because I might escape, but is it actually necessary to have more than one officer.

Q. And Mr. Aranyos says you have to have at least a minimum of two transport if not three regulation.(Sic) And Mr. Herzog says, that's for my protection as well as yours, the reason being if something happened to you or if you slipped and went into the wall and all kinds of marks on you, you could say that gorilla beat me up. And Aranyos says, or our buddy Wayne Stewart put two rounds in your back because you tried to run away. Mr. Herzog says, at least I have somebody saying no, it didn't happen. Now I will be perfectly honest with you. It might be the county detective that goes with me.

Q. And you say what?

A. I don't know.

Q. They mention Wayne Stewart. Wayne Stewart is a Jamestown police officer you didn't get along with well?

A. Right.

Q. Because he called you a liar?

A. Not exactly, he just yelled at me.

Q. He yelled at you because you lied to him, right? You're telling me a crock of crap, and I don't believe a word you are saying, and he's yelling at you, right?

A. He yelled at me for not really telling him nothing. That's what he yelled at me for.

Q. But you don't have a problem with John Herzog now, right? You're calling him John now and he is a cool guy?

A. I think he is all right, yes.

Q. And Mr. Aranyos says Jim Tridico. Mr. Herzog says Jim Tridico. He is the guy that was here with the tape, the videotape, all right? And if you think or have any idea that the knife might be there, I think it would be in our best interest to go get it and it would probably be like Tuesday we will get it. And Aranyos says Mike, the sooner the better. We don't want to conceal it. We don't want anybody else to destroy it. It's not because we are the Commonwealth. We are Mike Brown, and I don't want anybody taking the knife and destroying your credibility if you think you can get it. And

what did you say?

A. I am going to tell you straight, I am not going to tell you it's absolutely positive. I could have - - it could have gotten moved, but it's not a good idea, (sic) and the same way with the shoes.

Q. Mr. Herzog says the shoes, the bank bag, too? Is this bank bag - - did you, in fact, or did someone give it to Mark Kent? And you say what?

A. Yeah, he is like my neighbor. Then must be he asked, did somebody give it to him? Well, Jay told me he gave it away. He asked me if I wanted it and I told him no.

Q. Is that true?

A. No.

Q. That's all a lie right (marking)?

A. Yeah.

Q. Why did you tell that lie?

A. I don't know.

Q. You are telling him here you got a good idea where that murder weapon is, the same as you had a good idea where the shoes were, right?

A. I guess you could say that.

Q. That's a lie, too, right?

A. No, I thought it was, you know, it's a possibility. I had some, you know, good places where they might have been.

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Q. Oh. okay. Aranyos says then, what you indicated the other day was the extent of your knowledge regarding the bank bag as well as the shoes, or do you have any other additional information? And you say what?

A. No, he just asked me if I wanted the bank bag, and I told him no, and you know, it was probably later than that day when he went over town and stuff, and I went to Mark's, and he lived a couple of streets over from my house, and I seen a bank bag over there whether it is the same one.

Q. Mr. Herzog says all right, did you put on - - and then there is a dash, and Mr. Aranyos says I just wanted to clarify for transport in case we don't have it in writing because I will get it until the first ([sic]), you cooperate with them fully. And you say what?

A. It says I will be gone until the first. Yes, like the times that we come over here, could I and - - like the times we come over here, could I and the times we do anything - - could I have kind of start getting in advance a little bit. Because we have a phone list over there, and it makes - - and it's makes a little difficult most of time, all right, but, you know, set times.

Q. What are you talking about there, Mr. Brown?

A. There is a couple times where when they bring me over here to question me and stuff, like I usually use the phone on Wednesdays at 6:00, and sometimes that was impossible

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because I was over here on Wednesday at 6:00, and people just kind of - -

Q. You are asking the police to make an appointment with you, aren't you?

A. To at least, I mean, stop popping in. Give me some sort of idea.

Q. You're sitting in jail and you are asking the police to make an appointment with you?

A. I didn't ask them to make an appointment. I asked them to give me some idea of what times they were coming in so I knew what plans.

Q. What times they were going to go up there and search, right? What time they were going to take you up and search the house?

A. That didn't matter as far as going up there.

Q. What time they came and got you is important. Why is it important if you're sitting in jail?

A. Because I had people to talk to, phone calls to make and - -

Q. Things to do?

A. Well, I got a whole lot of things to do over there, you know.

Q. You didn't think, those times weren't important for you because you needed to make arrangements to get the marijuana down here to the jail?

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A. I never brought marijuana into the jail.

Q. You never set that up? And you weren't asking the police to make arrangements with regard to the time so you could set it up with your buddies when to get the marijuana in?

A. I haven't done drugs in quite a while. I never smoked marijuana.

Q. You never smoked marijuana since you got into that jail?

A. No.

Q. Never?

A. No. I offered to take a urine test for me, but they didn't want to.

Q. But nevertheless the police need to make an appointment because you are a busy guy?

A. Yeah.

Q. And Aranyos said, I think we are going to have to - - we will have more set times in the future, Mike. Herzog said this is the end of tape, Verify the tape ran out. And you verify the tape ran out. And that's your statement of 12-22-89, right?

The next statement you make to the police other than when you discuss things with them outside the tapes is 1-5-90, and would you agree that during that period of time you didn't make any statements to the police because Mr.

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Aranyos was out of town, and he told you on this tape don't talk to them unless I am here?

A. That's what he said.

Q. I don't know whether I have done it. I move for admission of Defendant's 33.

MR. MASSA: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted.

(Documents marked Defendant's Exhibit Nos. 35 and 36.)

MR. SMITH: Mr. Brown, I have marked for identification purposes Defendant's Exhibit 35 which is a police report dated 12-22-89, (sic) and I would at this time move for admission of Defendant's 35.

MR. MASSA: No objection.

THE COURT: I have 34.

MR. SMITH: The muscle shirt is 34, I have not moved for admission of that item. Well, the date of the report is 1-3-90, the supplemental police report. The date of the last statement that we talked about is 12-22-89. That's been moved into evidence.

THE COURT: Thirty-four is the partial T-shirt or the piece of cloth?

MR. SMITH: Right, and 35, now we are at the police report dated 1-3 of 190.

THE COURT: First you said 1-5.

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MR. SMITH: 1-3 of ‘90.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. MASSA: Could we approach the bench a moment, Your Honor?

(off-the-record discussion at side-bar.)

BY MR. SMITH:

Q. Mr. Brown, let me read for you a police report dated 1-3-90, and again, the last tape we looked at, Mr. Aranyos says he is going on vacation, he will be back. He later comes back, and you give them an additional statement. In the interim he asks you to cooperate fully, to go your house, look for murder weapons and stuff like that, and you, in fact, do that during that time frame, right?

A. Yeah.

Q. And in that police report - - do you have a copy of the police report?

A. This thing (indicating)?

Q. Yeah. Okay, police report, the date of the report is 1-3-90 at the bottom of the page, but the date they are talking about is 12-22-89, right? That's what is typed in there anyway.

A. Yes.

Q. It says district attorney-elect Joseph Massa, after hearing about possibility of murder weapon and other physical evidence might be found, he advised we should go to

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Jamestown and look for this evidence as soon as possible. It was then decided we should take Brown to Jamestown on 12-23-89 in the morning; is that correct?

A. Yep.

Q. So you and Mr. Tridico and Mr. Herzog pile in a car, go to your house on 12-23-89, right?

A. I don't know what date it was for sure, but we did go up there. It could have been that date. I don't know.

Q. And on this statement it says, Michael Brown advised that the last place he had seen the knife on the 18th of May ‘88 is when Jay Buckley was washing it off in the sink in the basement of his residence. Is that true or a lie?

A. That's a lie.

Q. That's a lie (marking). Why did you tell Mr. Tridico or Mr. Herzog that when they took you up there?

A. Well, see, I had just thoughts, I wasn't positive like it kind of makes it sound here, but once he washed it off and stuff and he had taken care of it, I thought I had seen it around after that, but I wasn't positive and then I found out that it had been laying around my house so we went up to search for it.

Q. The last time you had seen the knife on May 18, ‘89 is when Jay Buckley was washing it off in the sink in the basement of his residence, and you say that's a lie, right?

A. Well, it was right after he washed it off, yes. I

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just said I kind of thought I seen it laying around the house, but I wasn't positive of it, so I didn't tell them.

Q. It said that Michael Brown advised at the time he had his bedroom in that area of the basement. Is that true?

A. Yes, that's true.

Q. Now, is this sink in your bedroom located in the same room Kathy Wilson is tied up in?

A. No.

Q. She Is tied up in a different room?

A. Yes.

Q. And he takes her down in the basement and he wants a piece that day but doesn't take her right into your bedroom in the basement?

A. No.

Q. He advised that he was lying on his bed and watched Jay Buckley first wash the knife and then use what he thought was sandpaper on the blade. Is that true or a lie?

A. It was - - I don't really know what it was. I got it. It was kind of like a super fine sandpaper but it was almost - - it was real fine. It felt like an emory cloth.

Q. Did you watch Jay Buckley wash the knife and then sand it down?

A. I watched him wash it and go over it with that piece of whatever that I gave to him.

Q. Did you watch him do that at the sink? Is that

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true?

A. That's true and correct.

Q. That's true and correct, okay. Brown advised that when Jay was done he put the knife under the sink. Did you watch him put the knife under the sink?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Why did you tell them that (marking)?

A. I don't know.

Q. Brown advised that before and during the time Jay was washing the knife that there was blood on it. Is that true or false?

A. That's true.

Q. That's true?

A. Yes.

Q. Is this the same knife he was sandpapering, washing down, had blood on it, all that stuff (indicating)?

A. That's the one he was washing.

Q. This rusty old thing here (indicating)?

A. Yes.

Q. See the cracks up in here? See the cracks along the handle (indicating)?

A. Let me look closer.

Q. See the cracks along the handle?

A. Yes.

Q. Were they there that day?

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A. There was black electrical tape around the handle.

Q. Wrapped around this (indicating)?

A. The handle, yeah.

Q. Do you know the FBI went in there with all kind of scopes to see if they would find any blood in there and they didn't find anything?

A. I don't think blood would go through electrical tape.

Q. What did he do with the electrical tape?

A. Pulled it off.

Q. Ripped it off. Where did he put it?

A. I don't even know.

Q. Don't even know.

Q. You didn't pick it up or anything?

A. No.

Q. Bloody electrical tape laying around?

A. I am sure he didn't leave it laying around, but I don't know what he did with it.

Q. But he left the knife at your house?

A. Apparently. That's where it was found.

Q. Here Is this guy meticulously sanding down this rusty knife, washing the blood off, taking the electrical tape off, very carefully because it's a murder weapon, and he leaves with it (sic) with you at your house? Is that what you are telling the jury?

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A. He didn't leave it with me, you know, but he didn't leave it there. I wouldn't say he was all that careful about the situation either.

Q. But he was careful enough to sand down this rusty knife, wash the blood off, take the tape off, that careful, but he wasn't careful about where he took the knife or where he put it or what he did with it?

A. Must be not.

Q. Doesn't make much sense, does it?

A. Didn't make no sense murdering her either but he did.

Q. Then it goes on, Mr. Brown advised that the knife is not under the sink, it might have been found in a small baby's cradle in the back room in the basement. Is that true or lie?

A I told him that.

Q. Why did you tell them that?

A. Because I told you I thought I seen it laying around after that. I wasn't positive of it, and I just thought that is possibly where I seen it in some kind of baby cradle.

Q. You say here, when Jay was done, he put the knife under the sink. You admit that's a lie, right?

A. Yes, that's a lie.

Q. When you were up there, you say I think he put it

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under the sink. I saw him put it under the sink. Let's look for it there. They don't find nothing. Well, let's look in the baby's cradle out back and see if it's there, and you look around in your basement until you could come up with a rusty old knife to give to the police; isn't that what you did?

A. Would you repeat yourself?

Q. You went up there, told them it's under the sink, that's the last I saw it. They looked under there, you looked under there, it wasn't there. Then you told them a small baby cradle and went out there and looked. You looked all through your basement in order to find a rusty old hunting knife, or any knife for that matter, weren't you?

A. We looked all over for that, yes, but I had already told them exactly what the knife had looked like.

Q. The knife that you saw in African movies? Is that the one? Is that the same knife you're describing here?

A. No.

Q. No? I forget all the knives you described Mr. Brown. I will trust the jury will remember.

A. There is only two of them.

Q. Up until you found this knife, you never describe it, did you?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did you?

A. Yes, I told them what it looked like.

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Q. Is that the knife that killed Kathy Wilson? That one there (indicating)?

A. I told them I am not positive.

Q. It's the knife that was laying in your cellar that you gave police?

A. Yes. He had it in his hand at the crime scene.

Q. Why can't you be positive or not whether this is the knife that killed Kathy Wilson? Why can't you say it is or isn't?

A. Because I wasn't close enough, and I don't really know if that was definitely the knife or not. I just know he had in (sic) his hand after she was murdered.

Q. You saw blood on it, right?

A. Yes.

Q. You seen blood on any other knives?

A. I never saw any other knives after that. After we got back to the house I never seen that other one again.

Q. If come (sic) on a statement later down the road when you're in detail describing that knife, describing that knife in Jay Buckley's hand and that knife with blood on it and that knife coming down stabbing her, how do you get that information in the later statement unless you're lying in that statement?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know?

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A. No, I don't. But I just did believe that was the knife that murdered Mrs. Wilson.

Q. Do you still believe that today?

A. Kind of, yeah.

Q. Let's go to the second page of that report.

THE COURT: Let's recess. Court will recess until 1:15

(Lunch recess was taken.)

(Document marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 37.)

BY MR. SMITH:

Q. Mr. Brown, we left off at the second page of the statement as contained in Defendant's Exhibit No. 35. On that second page it says as follows, Brown advised that there was a ring that was in his house and that Jay was wanting to sell it. It was part of a set. The other part of the set was a necklace. We attempted to locate this ring with negative results. Tell us about that. Is that true? Did you tell the police that?

A. I did tell them there was a ring, yeah.

Q. Did you tell them the other part of the set was a necklace?

A. I don't know.

Q. That's what it says there, isn't it?

A. It doesn't mean I said it.

Q. It doesn't mean you said it. You are saying the

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police put that in there by mistake?

A. It's possible. I don't know. I don't remember.

Q. Did you tell them there was a ring?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you tell them the ring was part of a set?

A. I told them it had looked like it was part of a set that I previously seen.

Q. And you told them the other part of the set was a necklace; did you not?

A. I might have. I don't know.

Q. You told them it was at your house and they searched your house and couldn't find it?

A. I told them it might be laying around my house or something.

Q. Why did you tell them that?

A. I thought it could be laying around my house.

Q. A ring and a necklace?

A. A ring.

Q. And they were looking for it because you told the it was Kathy Wilson's?

A. No, my mom looked for it.

Q. Didn't you indicate to them it was Kathy Wilson's, that Jay had it and he wanted to sell it?

A. Yes, and I told him (sic) I thought it might be around the house.

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Q. Didn't you tell them it was Kathy Wilson's? They weren't just looking for a ring and necklace. They were looking for Kathy Wilson's ring and necklace, weren't they?

A. The ring I told them might be at my house was Kathy Wilson's.

Q. Right. That's what you told them, right?

A. Yeah.

Q. Why did you them that? Did Jay try to sell you a ring and a necklace?

A. He wanted to sell it.

Q. Did you see Jack Buckley with a ring and a necklace in his hand he wanted to sell you? Yes or no?

A. Yes. Well, yes and no. I didn't see him with a necklace. Excuse me.

Q. You didn't see him with a necklace? You saw him with a ring? Is that what you are saying?

A. Yes.

Q. And why did you take the necklace out of the story? Did you take the necklace out of the story after the police said they found the necklace at the crime scene?

A. No.

Q. When did you find the necklace at the crime scene? (SIC)

A. I never believe I - - maybe the other day or something but - -

Q. Maybe the other day or something. Do you know

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whether the ring is still at the crime scene?

A. Not unless he took it back and threw it there, which I doubt.

Q. He tried to sell you a ring and necklace that was part of the set. Is that what you told police?

A. That's what it says here.

Q. Is that what you told the police, yes or no?

A. I told you five times, I cannot remember.

THE COURT: Okay, we have a problem with the jury again, Mr. Brown.

(Off-the-record discussion.)

BY MR. SMITH:

Q. Is that what you told the police, that he tried to sell you a set, a necklace and ring were part of the set? Yes or no?

A. I don't know. Would you like me to spell it out?

Q. You don't know?

A. I don't remember if I told them there was a necklace or not.

Q. You don't remember. You told them there was definitely a ring, and they are looking through your house for a ring, and they don't find it, right?

A. I don't think they looked through the house for the ring. I believe my mom did.

Q. Why would your mom look through the house for the

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ring? Did you tell your mom the ring was still in the house?

A. I told her I thought it could be.

Q. What made you think it could be?

A. I thought it could be. If I knew it was there I would have said yes, it is was definitely there. If I didn't think it was, I would have told them it wasn't.

Q. What made you think it was in the house? Did Jay Buckley leave it in your house?

A. I don't know.

Q. Does this fall under the category that anything is possible? Is that what this is all about?

A. If I knew where it was they would have had it.

Q. We are going to come to the ring and necklace later on in your statements Mr. Brown. You don't think your answers to my questions over the last seven days have been evasive at all?

A. Well, I answer them, every question you ask I answer it ten times. I kind of get tired of answering the same question after a while.

Q. Maybe if you would answer it once without being evasive I wouldn't ask it nine more times. Let's try to do that from now on. The second part of that page says, as Brown, Tridico and this officer are returning to Pennsylvania and as we went by Swede Hill Road off U.S. 62, Brown stated I remember that road. I told you before that we were on that

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road, As we went by that road that day Jay said something about missing the road. We went down and turned left. At approximately that time we reached the Akeley intersection. We turned left. We asked Brown what they did then. He stated after we made the left-hand turn, we came across the bridge, we turned around at the gas station, came back up to the stop sign sometime after crossing the bridge and when we turned to go back up the road that we had missed, Jay told me to throw out the purse and I did. We went up the road and turned left onto the road that Jay had missed before. After turning onto that road we ended up on Lindell Road.

Okay, now you are telling these guys three, four months later, describing them what road you took and et cetera, after you have already been to the crime scene with the police way back on your first or second statement, right?

A. I guess somewhat.

Q. Somewhat.

A. But I had told them there about this road a long time ago before I got arrested.

Q. What statement was that on?

A. When they were driving me home one night.

Q. How come it wasn't in any of your other eight statements you went through, about this Akeley intersection and all that?

A. They were driving me home and I mentioned it as we

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drove past it.

Q. They took you down to show you where the purse was found, right?

A. No.

Q. Showed you where the Akeley intersection was, drove in there that day and from now on out, in all your statements, you are going to the Akeley intersection where before you weren't. How come?

A. What do you mean before I wasn't going there?

Q. I don't recollect you're talking in your previous statements about driving down to the Akeley intersection and making a turn at the bridge or any of that stuff, do you?

A. I really don't know.

Mr. SMITH: I think I have already admitted Defendant's Exhibit 35. If not I move at this time.

THE COURT: Admitted.

MR. SMITH: I would like to turn to Defendant's Exhibit No. 37 which is a taped statement of 1-5-90. I'm sorry, Defendant's Exhibit 37, which is Mr. Brown's taped statement of 1-5-90.

BY MR. SMITH:

Q. Now, this statement, Mr. Brown, is made after your attorney returns, right, from wherever he went, right? And after you have taken the police to your house to do this search for murder knives and rings and necklaces right?

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12-21-89
Statement of Dec. 22, 1989

1-5-90

The Village Law Review