| Statement of Dec. 20, 1989 (Excerpt Version) |
|
|
Here is the complete version if you prefer. And here is the newspaper article concerning this day's (trial) testimony. Also included here is attorney Barry Smith's presentation and examination of Mr. Brown's testimony at his Juvenile Certification Hearing of December 11, 1989 (Here is the newspaper article concerning that proceeding). A matter of particular significance, when viewed in it's full context, are the police notes of 12-15-89. The bulk of this testimony concerns attorney Smith's examination of Brown's INTERVIEW AND STATEMENT of DECEMBER 20, 1989. Mr. Smith's actual cross-examination of these statements has been omitted here (for the most part) in the interests of brevity, and clarity in our effort to present these statements. Nothing of significance has been omitted here, the intent here is to present the content of Mr. Brown's statements - with context, clarity and continuity. Where it is relevent, and it can be definitely ascertained, the speaker has been identified. In some instances the actual questions and answers are merely paraphrased by attorney Smith and Mr. Brown. The actual transcripts are indicated by a white background, and the reformatted content of the statements are indicated by a shaded background. While it is certainly true that the devil is in the details, a broader aspect of this statement that I find interesting is the fact that this statement (of December 20, 1989) is Mr. Brown's first statement since his arrest on October 10, 1989, over two months prior. Ever since his arrest, Michael has been swearing up and down that he had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with these crimes. (Of course no one wanted to listen). It is also notable that these statements began (purportedly) simultaneously with the finalization of Mr. Brown's plea agreement, and is taking place only a week after his juvenile certification hearing - and prior to Mr. Brown even having had a preliminary hearing (which he never did have, being subsequently waived as part of his plea agreement - more than two weeks later). A very curious matter, which it does not appear was caught by Barry Smith, and which I only recently recognized, involves this passage right here. Of course this entire conversation is very strange, but what I find really strange is Aranyos' comments about "we were in court together today,". Today, HAD to be December 11, 1989 - the date of Michael's Juvenile Certification Hearing. Yet this statement is presented (in conformity with the (apparent) progression of the other "documentation" concerning this matter) as being given on December 20, 1989. You are welcome to use your imagination here, because your guess is as good as mine. It's not that inconsistent with my theory of this case - but it does add a rather bizarre little twist. As if this case needed one! As you become aware of the full significance of this period, i.e., from the time of Brown's arrest until this statement, one of the most (seemingly) perplexing questions in this entire case present's itself. That is, HOW did they do this? HOW did they get someone who had absolutely nothing to do with these henious crimes of murder, kidnap, and rape, agree to provide (false) information against another individual and his own self! - and actually agree to enter guilty pleas to reduced charges based on such false charges? There's lots of little things that are interesting here, like the discussion of the reward - more than two months after his arrest. And this is what they are telling him about it ON TAPE. (By the way, there are 68 "inaudibles" on this tape by my count). And here is a rather strange passage. I am also impressed with the commitment, and determination of Mr. Brown's "attorney" to get to the bottom of this. He really should have been a cop. Too bad he couldn't get around to checking Mr. Brown's time card and work orders for May 18, 1988. Too bad he pulled his investigator off this case a good three or four weeks prior to this "agreement". FYI, six weeks after Michael's arrest (October 10, 1989) was November 22. Which is nearly 3 weeks prior to Michael's "Juvenile Certification Hearing" (December 11). Which of course was 9 days prior to the purported date of this statement. (Or was it the same day?) You will want to think about all that, particularly with regards to the time frame mentioned by "Investigator" Thelin. It should also be recognized that this is in fact precisely (as precise as this record gets) when, where, and how Mr. Brown's "conviction" occurred. The actual entry of his plea - nearly a year-and-a-half later was a mere formality - a done deal. Done dirt cheap, too. You will notice that this is more of a pep talk than a statement. And in case you can't tell, ARRANYOS is Mr. Brown's attorney, and HERZOG is the state police investigator.
|
|
Juvenile Certification / Statement of December 20, 1989 |
6
Q. Mr. Brown, I want to go to the hearing that was held in this court on December 11, 1989, before Judge Wolfe, your certification hearing. Do you have a copy of that?MR. MASSA: Yes.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Well, let's see. In the interest of time Mr. Brown a lot of the hearing doesn't have a lot to do with what we are here about, so what I am going to refer to is your
7
testimony on Pages 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63 and 64 of that transcript. Here's a copy for you (indicating). Let’s start out at the bottom of page 58 when Mr. Aranyos calls you to the stand and he says what? This is after you have been sworn in, right? Maybe we should read the part where you were sworn in. Michael Brown, called as a witness, was sworn and examined, testified as follows, and direct examination by Mr. Aranyos. This is your attorneys Mr. Aranyos, asking you questions, right?A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. And he asked you what? What is the first thing he asked you to do?
|
MR. ARANYOS: State your name and address, please. MR. BROWN: Michael Brown, 266 Lister Avenue, Falconer, New York. MR. ARANYOS: How old are you? MR. BROWN: Eighteen.
8 MR. ARANYOS: At the time of the alleged incident in May of 1968, how old were you? MR. BROWN: Sixteen. MR. ARANYOS: Have you discussed taking the stand today and
9 offering testimony to the Court?MR. BROWN: Yes. MR. ARANYOS: Do you understand you are required to tell the truth under the oath and obligation you just took? MR. BROWN: Yes. MR. ARANYOS: Do you intend to tell the truth here today? MR. BROWN: Yes. MR. ARANYOS: Have I discussed with you the penalty for perjury in the event you lie or offer false testimony to the Court? MR. BROWN: Yes. MR. ARANYOS: Now, you heard Dr. Steinmeyer testify today that you have advised him that you were not involved in these crimes; is that correct? MR. BROWN: Yes.
10 MR. ARANYOS: Did you have anything
11 to do whatsoever with the homicide of Kathy Wilson?MR. BROWN: No, I didn't. MR. ARANYOS: Did you have any participation in or have anything to do with the rape of Kathy Wilson? MR. BROWN: No, I didn't.
12 MR. ARANYOS: Did you have anything to do with the participation of the kidnapping of Kathy Wilson? MR. BROWN: No, I did not. MR. ARANYOS: Dr. Steinmeyer has testified today that you show no remorse with respect to the circumstances
13 surrounding the incident; is that correct?MR. BROWN: Yeah. MR. ARANYOS: Why is it you don't show remorse? MR. BROWN: I have no reason to show remorse. MR. ARANYOS: Why is that? MR. BROWN: I had nothing to do with the disappearance.
14 MR. ARANYOS: At the present time what is your feeling at the jail?MR. BROWN: I just feel I am wrongly - - wrongfully incarcerated.
15 MR. ARANYOS: Did you advise Mr. Steinmeyer of that?MR. BROWN: Yes.
16 MR. ARANYOS: Dr. Steinmeyer testified here today you felt deceived? MR. BROWN: Yes. MR. ARANYOS: Deceived by whom? MR. BROWN: By John Herzog.
18 MR. ARANYOS: The state police in particular?MR. BROWN: Yes. MR. ARANYOS: Anyone else? MR. BROWN: No. MR. ARANYOS: Were promises made to you? Is that why you feel deceived? MR. BROWN: Yes.
22 MR. ARANYOS: Have you cooperated with the Commonwealth to this point? MR. BROWN: Yes, this is since I have been in Pennsylvania. This is the first Commonwealth - - I am not familiar with the Commonwealth. MR. ARANYOS: When I say Commonwealth, I am referring, have you cooperated with the police agencies to this point? MR. BROWN: Yes. MR. ARANYOS: Have you cooperated with the police agencies since day one or day two of the investigation? MR. BROWN: Yes, I have.
23 MR. ARANYOS: The fact that you have alleged or believe - - or believe the Commonwealth has deceived you, is this a fantasy or is this something you perceive - - |
Q. And Mr. Massa objects and your attorney withdraws the question. Let me ask you that question. The fact that you have alleged or believe the Commonwealth has deceived you, is that fantasy or something you perceive? Was it fantasy that they deceived you, or is it something you perceive?
A. I do feel that I, you know, like I said, I feel I got - - I guess you could say tricked, a little deceived in a way.
Q. Let's go to Page 63, Mr. Brown, starting at question or Line 5, and this is questioning by Mr. Massa.
|
MR. MASSA: Mr. Brown, I have just a few questions. How long have you known Jay William Buckley?
MR. BROWN: Approximately maybe two years up to today, maybe two and a half years, somewhere
24 around there.MR. MASSA: Maybe two and a half years? MR. BROWN: It's possible. MR. MASSA: Would you have met him in early 1988? MR. BROWN: Yes, when I worked at Bush Industries, I met him. MR. MASSA: When were you working at Bush Industries? MR. BROWN: Back sometime in 1988, I would imagine.
25 MR. MASSA: You were 17 years of age?MR. BROWN: Yes. Q. Page 64, Could you read Lines 1 through 7?
MR. BROWN: On Mace Drive (spelled phonetically) in Falconer, Jamestown Township, not far from my house. MR. MASSA: You worked with
26 adults?MR. BROWN: I worked with a lot of kids I went to school with. I was a temporarily hired by Career Consultants. MR. MASSA: How did you get to and from work? MR. BROWN: I walked.
|
Q. That's all of that statement, Mr. Brown.
MR. SMITH: Your Honor, other than admit the whole transcript I would move for admission of Defendant's Exhibit 29, which would be those portions of the transcript of the court hearing of December 11, 1989.
MR. MASSA: No objection, but I would request that the entire direct examination of Mr. Brown be admitted as an exhibit.
THE COURT: Admitted.
(Document marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 30.)
Q. Mr. Brown, I would like to show you what has been marked for identification purposes as Defendant's Exhibit No. 30, again, a police report, two pages. Before you read from that I would move for admission of Defendant's Exhibit No. 30.
THE COURT: Is there a date on that?
MR. SMITH: It has several dates 12-10 through 12-22.
THE COURT: Eighty-nine?
MR. SMITH: Eighty-nine.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. MASSA: No, Your Honor,
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Mr. Brown, I gave you my copy. I will get my copy back. You see the one that says 12-15-89?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you read that for me?
A. On 12-15-89 this Officer met with Mr. Massa, which I presume is John Herzog.
Q. Written by John Herzog, right?
A. Yes, and a letter was written by Massa to Attorney Aranyos and John Ward, Chautauqua County District Attorney. Massa requested that this officer hand carry the letter to Mr. Aranyos and then talk with Mr. Aranyos about this letter.
28
|
HERZOG: After getting the letter from Massa, made contact with Aranyos. I gave him the letter and while talking with him told this officer again he has nothing to do with his client and advise that the police have evidence against him.
I told Aranyos about the victim's blouse and how it was removed and how his client told us he removed it button by button. After giving Aranyos this I also advised him we have more evidence and when all put together it shows a clear picture of what happened to the victim. Aranyos then advised this officer the following. How would you to (sic) have the bank bank bag? How would you like to have the victim's shoes? Would you like to have the murder weapon, or at least information about it and where it might have gone. Aranyos also advised that his client received money from the bank bag from Buckley as payment to keep quiet. Aranyos feels his client will give this officer a full and complete statement shortly.
35 |
A. Okay (indicating).
Q. Last sentence, Attorney Aranyos gave this officer permission to transport his client to the State of New York in an attempt to recover the murder weapon and other evidence. Were you transported on 12-22-89 to recover the murder weapon and other evidence?
A. I don't know what day it was.
Q. Were you transported in December of ‘89 to do that?
A. I don't even know if it was in December I was
36
transported. I don't know when it was.Q. You were looking for the murder weapon and other evidence?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you find it?
A. We found one of the knives, yes.
Q. It says the murder weapon. It doesn't say a knife. Attempt to recover murder weapon and other evidence. What did you give them on that day?
A. Just the knife that I can remember.
Q. You gave them the knife and said this is the murder weapon?
A. I said, this is the one I believe he stabbed Mrs. Wilson with, yes.
Q. Now we are down to your statement of 12-22 (sic). Mr. Brown, let me ask you a question before we go into this statement. It's a rather long one, detailed (indicating). Now this is on 12-20 is when you have a plea bargain, an agreement with the Commonwealth, right, same date as the written plea bargain agreement, right?
A. I guess.
Q. Do you want to see the written plea bargain? Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3, Mr. Brown is dated what day?
Q. Okay, Let's go through it. Go ahead start from the beginning.
|
A. All right. Five, four three, two, one. The tape is on. The date is
12-20-89. The time being 2038. You have been advised of your constitutional rights. In fact, you have signed a waiver of your rights. Present with you is your attorney Mr. Aranyos. Okay?
BROWN: Yeah. HERZOG: I am Trooper Herzog. You are Michael Brown? BROWN: Yeah. HERZOG: Everybody is on the tape now. Sure. Okay. HERZOG: Michael, the reason we are meeting tonight, we have to come to an agreement and understanding between you and I, all right? We have talked several times, all right? BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: And I think, if you remember, one of the last times I talked to you, what I told you was, tell your attorney everything, don't lie to him. BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: Did I tell you that? BROWN: Yes. HERZOG: And don't screw up the county jail? BROWN: Yeah. HERZOG: And I told you eventually we would make some kind of a deal. Did I not tell you that? BROWN: Yeah. HERZOG: Do you have any problems with me? BROWN: Nope. HERZOG: That you want to discuss? Anything that I did to you that - - BROWN: No. I was just curious. Being in - - does being in
40 jail mean I am not eligible for them rewards and stuff like from the Crime Watchers or Crime Stoppers and - - oh, it's cut off. |
Q. Let's, and it's cut off. There are three dots. It's not an inaudible. It's just a cut off, but you are saying Crime Watchers or Crime Stoppers, and what you were going to say was the New York State reward, right? You weren't only interested in the crime Stoppers, the PA Crime Stoppers, you were interested in the New York State reward, too?
A. I wasn't interested. It was just curiosity.
HERZOG: The first time that we met, okay, okay when I - - well, not the first time we met but when I come to your residence - - BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: that night what was it 12:30, 1:00, 12:30 1:00 and we talked. BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: And you told me some things that at that point in time I honestly didn't know from what you told us that you were involved - - BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: per se, okay. We did talk at the time about you asked about a reward. BROWN: Uh-huh.
41 HERZOG: I mentioned Crime Stoppers, okay. BROWN: Yes, (inaudible). HERZOG: We are sitting here. I am telling you I am not (sic) the one that mentioned Crime Stoppers to you. BROWN: Yes, You also mentioned one time John - - Joe Welsh on the day I got arrested, you know, you told me I was eligible for that one in New York whether I was in jail or not. |
43
MR. MASSA: Your Honor, I am going to make an objection at this time as to the self-serving pauses Mr. Smith has made throughout. He stops at a point where counsel feels is beneficial to him. If the Court would like to just look at this page of the transcript, you would see immediately following is a question which at the date and time the statement was made explains the position clearly. May I please approach the bench and show the Court the transcript?MR. SMITH: Your Honor, I am going to read that too. We are going to go to those statements.
MR. MASSA: The point I am making is the question is asked and answered partially and a follow-up is made, but the timing throws the meaning off entirely, and if I could show the Court the statement I think it would be clear.
THE COURT: Well, I will look at the statement, but it seems to the Court on cross-examination the counsel can structure his questions as he deems appropriate. The statement is going to go to the jury. It has been admitted. Maybe it hasn't been yet, but the jury will be able to read it furthermore. Commonwealth is entitled to redirect after cross-examination, so I don't see at this point there is anything quote, misleading, but if you want to show me something there, I will look at it.
MR. SMITH: Your Honor, I am going to get to the
44
rest of what is on that page. The jury is going to hear it now, good, bad or indifferent.MR. MASSA: I will withhold at this time.
BY MR. SMITH:
45
|
HERZOG: Okay, Michael, I honestly can't tell you if you are eligible for the one in New York State. BROWN: but the rewards ain't no big deal, you know, I am just saying that is what I was trying to clarify that. I didn't know what to expect. HERZOG: Okay, (inaudible). Originally, if you are not a co-defendant, there would be no question, you're eligible for the reward. Up front and very candidly, there is some question at this point in time you are not eligible for the Crime Stoppers reward. Okay, and that's a legal point, and believe me, I am telling you if you are eligible for the Crime Stopper reward, you will get one, okay. BROWN: I, you know, that's kind of what I assumed, you know, and when I come down, (inaudible), the last day I was going to pick it up.
48 HERZOG: Knowing full well your participation, you were there. BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: Understanding that, and the research is being done not specifically for your case but for a bunch of cases. BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: Because you are not the only one that ever attempted to seek reward - - BROWN: What, I don't know maybe. ARANYOS: John may be merely explaining, I don't mean to interject (inaudible), to interrupt. He really has no control over what they decide. This is a legal issue whether or not he was an active participant even though you may be at a
49 minimum, level or any level at all, they may declare you ineligible.That will be the decision they have to make. He has very little control over it. BROWN: Uh-huh. ARANYOS?: Well, the same with New York State. BROWN: Yeah. HERZOG: I will say that New York State, the reward up there being you were a participant, the type of reward that is being offered, I honestly don't think they will ever give you the reward. ?: Yeah. ?: Okay. BROWN: All right. But it doesn't mention that. See, it didn't say that.
50 HERZOG: I know that, and I told you that I would run that by (inaudible).
51 BROWN: Uh-huh. Joe Welsh said I mentioned that to Mr. Ward.? : Yeah. HERZOG: And I did run it by, as a matter of fact, Mr. Barnes, Trooper Barnes. And the only one I can speak freely of is this Crime Stopper reward. BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: And I did run it by Mr. Barnes, Trooper Barnes, who is the coordinator. He contacted the public defender's office wanted to make sure you were aware of since that time we have been advised by our attorney that it might not be a legal issue but it's still being discussed. BROWN: Yeah. It's no problem. HERZOG: All right. BROWN: Like I said, that's, you know, the reward is just (inaudible), you
52 know, I am not really worried.HERZOG: How about anything else. |
THE COURT: Mr. Smith, court will recess for 15 minutes.
(Brief recess taken.)
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. I think we were at the top of the next page, Mr. Brown.
|
HERZOG: No. Be honest with me because I can I can tell you up front as I told you originally we want you to cooperate with us, all right?
BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: And you have a deal. BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: With that we expect you to be 110 percent honest with you. (sic) BROWN: Uh-huh. BROWN: I understand that. I just - - not to interrupt you or nothing, how come you didn't arrest me the first time I told you I was there instead of waiting a few days and arrest me when all the stuff was there. That was rather embarrassing I thought. HERZOG: Well, hey, now you say you were embarrassed. BROWN: I thought it was ridiculous. I thought I got screwed, you know. HERZOG: Who gave you the dough and told you to keep out of the cameras eyes. BROWN: Oh, you told me to put the coat on. HERZOG: Uh-huh. BROWN: But I am just saying hey, hey, you know, I assume it was like a setup. That's over with now, you know, I just, okay, where are you coming from. HERZOG: I am sitting here in front of you, and I told you the press and the people that were there. I have no control
53 over if my sergeant was sitting here. The sergeant, he would honestly tell you that I said if the press are out back we are going out the back door. And I am not the one - - I am and I am not one to grab headlines. (sic) I am not like that, but obviously someone from the station said hey, we are going to bring him out, we will wait 20 minutes for you or something. Who called, I can't honestly say. I can tell you honestly, I did not call, I can look you in the eye and I have no problem telling you I did not call. I did not set that up, okay. Hey, I understand how you feel about that, okay. I got no problem with that.ARANYOS: (inaudible), limousine and some other (inaudible). BROWN: Yeah, the limousine.
54 ARANYOS: You know, he really felt he was set up, and I have explained to him that to the best of your knowledge it was someone from the Pennsylvania State Police. (sic) It was apparently the prosecutors in both Warren and New York who made the phone calls to the appropriate television or radio stations. Again, this may have been without the knowledge of state police at the time. I do not
55 know and try to explain to Mike one other thing on behalf - - I told Trooper Herzog today, that I asked you specifically the same question whether you would be willing to cooperate and, (inaudible), time with John Herzog - -BROWN: - - Oh, no, I - - ARANYOS: - - and he advised me now as a matter of fact, you, (inaudible), explained your feelings toward him? BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: And maybe you won't even tell him your own feelings at this point, (inaudible), positive attitude towards, (inaudible). BROWN: Okay, I ain't got no problems with, (inaudible), I told Tim, I asked him to, you know, Rico, you know, to put in a referral type thing and, you know, so like when we go to court and stuff I would rather you take me then, you know, (inaudible). ARANYOS: (inaudible), he has requested that if he goes is he is going to be transported or needs assistance or if he is going to have to go to New York State for extradition, he preferred to do it with you if at all possible rather than
56 other authorities or other state troopers. I think there is an element of trust here and, (inaudible), prefers to work with Trooper John Herzog, if necessary, as opposed to unknown entities.HERZOG: Okay. Michael I have no problem with that, and I will guarantee I will be there whenever we go anyplace. BROWN: All right. HERZOG: If we have to, wherever we go I will be with you. I will be the guy sitting with you in the back seat. Somebody else might drive, but I will be there. If you remember when we got involved in interviewing I told you - - what did I tell you about talking to any other police agencies? BROWN: You told me not to talk to them. Okay, and he told me like, you know, just to go jail and be pretty much behaving and that you would try to help me in any way that you could.
57 HERZOG: Okay, and I realized, and the reason I said that and I told the police officers knowing that you're a resident of New York State, and I have no, per se, legal jurisdiction up there, and I didn't want anybody talking to you because you expressed that you didn't like some of the - - some of those fellows up there?BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: And I got no problem with that, okay. BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: And I understand that, (inaudible), if you'd have said that sooner, I would be there, hey, I will be there every time. We won't go anyplace that I am not there. All right. If somebody comes and says that they want you to go someplace, you tell them no, I am the one that is going to take you, all right?
BROWN: Um. HERZOG: I mean you just tell them that I don't want to go with, (inaudible), right.
ARANYOS: That is what I have explained to him. He is working with the Commonwealth and preferably, (inaudible), want to keep it that way, (inaudible), treating you as almost a Commonwealth lies no matter who it is, (Sic) local authorities or, (inaudible), and frankly, the Commonwealth is going to be calling the shots. But we don't want other interested agencies or somebody else stepping on your toes or somebody else’s. Okay. And I have no problem with that.
Like I said, (inaudible), um, you like I said
we were in court together today,
ah, things this were brought up in court I have I got no problem with what you said, all right. (Sic)
BROWN: Uh-huh.
ARANYOS?: And you are well aware you choose your words well, okay.
BROWN: Uh-huh.
|
Q. That's Trooper Herzog talking to you there when he says I am well aware you choose your words well, okay. He is talking about you appearing in court on December 11? Is that what that is about?
A. In one of these sentences in here he talked about I - - I don't know, you would think so, but I don't know for sure.
62
|
ARANYOS: But I also want to tell you, knowing there is a probability that you're going to testify at the hearing in New York State. BROWN: Yeah. ARANYOS: That is going to be one of the points they attack. And you said on the stand you had no involvement. They are not going to say you had no involvement as a specific thing. They are going to use that in a general term. We are going to have to fight that, and they are going to say that Trooper Herzog deceived you. BROWN: All right. |
Q. Let's stop there. Is he telling what you I am going to say?
A. I think.
Q. Telling you defense strategy?
A. I think that was my lawyer talking.
Q. Where does it say Mr. Aranyos?
A. It doesn't, but he is talking about what we are going to say about Mr. Herzog.
Q. They are talking about the statement you just made in court where you said you had no involvement right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. Read your answer to that.
|
BROWN: I did feel like I was deceived, you know, but in a
63 general way, you know. I did feel that way.ARANYOS: Okay. Like I said I understand that, but your interviews and after the basic interviews are over we are going to have to work on that a little bit. BROWN: Uh-huh. ARANYOS: You, we are going to have to be convincing. BROWN: All right.
|
64
A. Whoever is talking to me at this time.Q. Okay. Go ahead.
|
HERZOG: I honestly feel that from day one there might have been some things you didn't think went the way that you thought they should have went, but you - - as far as being screwed over by me, that really - - I mean, there was some question, but you don't think that I screwed you over, okay.
|
A. Yeah, I'm sorry, yes.
Q. That's is Trooper Herzog talking, isn't it? Not Mr. Aranyos?
A. I believe so, yeah.
Q. So when he says you're going to have to be convincing, that's Trooper Herzog talking to you, isn't it?
A. Yeah, I believe so.
Q. Go ahead.
|
HERZOG: You have some things that you don't think went right, but some things were not controlled by me, some things are controlled by law. BROWN: Uh-huh. ?: Okay. ?: Yes. HERZOG: Any other problems? And like I say, be honest, be up front. Let me tell you this right now, you talked to me probably eight to ten times, all right?
65 HERZOG: I know you have talked to Mr. Aranyos several times, okay? I know you, Michael Brown, and I know how you are. There is no doubt there is some things that have not been told yet, okay? And I got no problem with that, okay? I
66 honestly have no problem with that, and I told you the last time that I talked to you that there were things that you had not told yet, okay?BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: And I know that. What I am trying to get across to you, now, your attorney is present. You know where the Commonwealth is coming from. The Commonwealth has already given you a deal. BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: All right? You're well aware of the deal? BROWN: Yeah. HERZOG: Personally, it's probably not a bad deal, okay? BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: It might not look the best in the world to you, but I don't think it's a bad deal. BROWN: Hum. HERZOG: The deal hinges on you telling everything. I know there is, like I said, I am positive there is things that haven't been discussed. In our conversations from now on, regardless of what it is, you have to be honest with me. BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: I am sure your attorney told you that if you tell me, if you sit there tonight and you look me in the eye and you say, I stabbed her, fine and dandy, nothing changes. BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: Nothing changes. The charges don't change, our position doesn't change. BROWN: Yeah, I realize that. HERZOG: Okay? About any of the charges or anything that happened in this crime. If something else happened, we have to know, and I told you before the reason we have to know, sooner or later, it might come a time when Mr. Buckley is going to come to us and say, wait a minute, he is going to do ex-amount of time, and I am going to burn in the electric chair. You know, what he did.
67 HERZOG: Tell me what he did. Mr. Buckley, if you told us up front we have got no problem, we will live with that, okay.
68 BROWN: Uh-huh.HERZOG: But if Mr. Buckley tells us and there is physical evidence, or whatever that says, it's possible then you have got a problem. BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: You understood what the problem is. BROWN: Oh, yeah I understand that. HERZOG: Okay. Aranyos for example, (inaudible), Mr. Brown stabbed her with a kitchen knife with initials B.A.B. on it which stands for the (inaudible) and it's located in Mr. Brown, (inaudible), bedroom, (inaudible), and there is still bloodstains on it that are going to match Kathy Wilson, and they might, and they find that bloodstained knife with those initials on it, and matches Kathy Wilson’s blood, and you haven't told them that, guess what, the whole deal is off and you go down. Aranyos: And that's why again, Mike, his involvement, all the information that he has regarding the Kathy Wilson rape, kidnap and murder, what he knows from hearsay, what he knows from other individuals, what he knows of evidence as well as what he knows from eyewitness information, he will give you 100 percent.
|
A. I am sorry.
Q. That's your attorney talking, and he is saying you are going to cooperate with the Commonwealth, give them the
69
truth and so whatever the story is, you're going to tell it even if it implicates you, et cetera and et cetera. That's basically it?A. I guess.
Q. You are going to cooperate with them fully?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you say when he says that?
A. Okay.
Q. Go ahead. What Is the next line? This is again from Mr. Aranyos?
|
ARANYOS: That's the understanding, Mike, and you are going to tell John that's the understanding, right. BROWN: Yeah, I understand that's the understanding. ARANYOS: Like I said, and I told you thus several times that I talked to you, that one of the problems that I have and one of the problems that I have had right along, is you're 16 years old, okay. BROWN: Uh-huh. ARANYOS: And you're with an experienced criminal somebody who no doubt has raped before. My experience tells me he is not going to let you watch unless you participate in some way because he wants the hammer over you, He wants to say go ahead, tell the fucking cops that I - - something - - mister, you did it, too, and if you tell them, you are going to burn just like I burn. I can accept that. I know from fact that that happens. We have all the right scenario for that happening. The only thing that I am sitting here in front of you now telling you
70 is that did happen. Tell us. We can live with that. We will live with that.BROWN: Uh-huh. ARANYOS/HERZOG?: We want you to tell us. You tell us everything, You have got no problems. ARANYOS: Mike, not only can they live with that based upon, (inaudible), discussing John will agree with this they must live with it. That's what the deal is. Only you tell them the truth. For your benefit, John, as a matter of fact, maybe I should have been a cop. You have heard this at least multiple times. The same argument, the same stories, the same position. You don't have to say who you have heard it from. But you have heard it again and again. I know you, I, you know, you have got problems. I have got problems. The Commonwealth has had problems. Everybody has at this point. Again, Michael Brown, will you give 100 percent. BROWN: Okay. ARANYOS: Period. He understands the deal is the deal is the deal. How many times have we repeated that to you. BROWN: A lot. ARANYOS: But again, he has talked to you about it, I want to talk to you about it. BROWN: Uh-huh. ARANYOS: And I am basing my conversation on you as an individual. I feel I know Michael Brown. I, you know, the day of the hearing, the juvenile hearing the adult, (inaudible). BROWN: Uh-huh. ARANYOS: When Mr. Steinmeyer stood up there and went through his report. I could have probably given the same type of report. BROWN: Okay. HERZOG: Yeah. You, in saying that in knowing and not saying you have not told your attorney everything. It is
71 still my feeling it is possible that you did not tell Mr. Aranyos everything, and if that be the case, that's it. I am not screaming and hollering because I am not the guy that is going to lose. You are.BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: And, you know, there is many reasons why you say (inaudible), I didn't rape her, one reason being what would your girlfriend say, how could she live with that. BROWN: You - - HERZOG: Just let me finish. BROWN: All right. Okay. HERZOG: What would your girlfriend say to that what. Would your mom and dad say to that you, (inaudible), no. Maybe it won’t, but again I am telling you you have got too much to lose to take that chance. You have got everything to save by staying it. BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: If I told you before, if you didn't do it, nobody is going to break your arm and say you did do it. But if that did happen, think about it. Think about what you say. BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: Maybe it will pass and never come to light. BROWN: No, I ain't going to take that chance. HERZOG: No, you shouldn't take that chance. And some people say Mr. Buckley is not going to talk. Answer. I hope he does. I think he will, and I told you before I think he will. The only thing that I want is you to talk first. BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: And you to give it all, now we know that you're - - BROWN: Uh-huh. ARANYOS: Very clearly again, (inaudible), you understood no matter what you say, no matter what the extent of your involvement is, it does not make a difference. BROWN: Uh-huh.
|
72
(inaudible), right?A. Yes.
Q. Suspect you are saying unless you don't tell the truth, and Mr. Aranyos says if it turns up - - should be out - - you didn't tell them 100 percent of the truth, we are back to square one and face the charges, and you say to that, uh-huh?
A. Where does it say that?
Q. The next line down.
A. Yeah, that's what it says.
Q. That's what it says, and you say, uh-huh and agree to that. This whole litany we are going through, Michael, is asking you to tell the truth?
A. Yes.
Q. Saying that no matter what you say to them about your involvement, they are not going to prosecute you any further than what your deal is, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Asking you to cooperate 100 percent, and you're agreeing to do that, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Tell the full truth, nothing but the truth, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Very meticulously they go through this day, page after page with you?
A. I guess.
73
Q. Well, we will see. We will see. Go ahead. Let me help you out. I will read the questions and you read the answer, all right?|
Q. There are things that we know happen, some of the things we know because you told us, some of the things we know for some other reasons, some of the things we know obviously your attorney does not know, okay?
BROWN: Uh-huh. ARANYOS: And when we get into this interview here, again, there are going to be no secrets, everybody is going to know? A. Uh-huh. Q. You're going to tell us you must have told 99 percent, and I am sure there are a few more things and I want to know it now. A. Okay. Q. I know you are going to tell me because I know you're already thinking, and I just want to impress how important it is to tell everything. I know you say I understand, I understand, I understand, but in the same token I just - - I honestly hope you do understand and you are not, not just saying it, because it is your benefit. A. Okay.
74 ARANYOS. One thing I want to point out Michael, too, this is not - - this is not I will give you so much today and I will give you so much tomorrow. This is I will give it all today. Now, it may not be today, but the very first time you're asked give it all, if there was anything I did not cover because of information I didn't have, I don't care what it is, physical evidence. I don't care what it entails. If you have information, you disclose it. It doesn't make a difference, you give them everything.A. Uh-huh. ARANYOS. All right and again, Michael, understand that he promised me he would. Again, the questions about evidence and fact about witnesses we have discussed, for example, apparently there was at least one eyewitness that Michael is familiar with who maybe gave me a name, a Mr. Foster who may be able to pinpoint Mr. Buckley? A. Yeah and (inaudible). ARANYOS. I understand a black female who can also do the same, (inaudible), female, I don't know if she exists or her name, maybe the Commonwealth does. If you know, you tell it. If there is information surrounding everything we talked about, the bank bag, the shoes, the knife or any other physical evidence, I am not aware of what there might be, if you know it, tell it. If you don't know, I have also
75 explained to Mike, and I don't know if it is - - honestly doesn't know if he is going to tell your he is not going to fabricate evidence. He is not going to guess at evidence. He is not to tell you what he thinks you want to hear. He is to tell you 100 percent of the truth. If he doesn't know and it's based upon information he received from other person’s, he is to tell you. He is to give you the person's name, he is to discuss the address and phone number or any other information he has. He is to answer every question, and as I explained to you, it's not a statement. You are not going to just sit here and say this is what happened. You are going to answer any and all questions that are asked of you from this day forward to wherever. It's possible there are things he just neglected to tell me that I haven't asked for, something that may be inconsequential or insignificant to me, because I am not aware of how it ties in with the overall case, but I intend to cooperate 100 percent. I know said I believe you and I have talked, Mike, not 100 percent? 105 percent.A. Uh-huh. Q. On the same line, I know of some persons that might have known and I know there is no doubt obvious reasons why you do not want to tell me that person has possible knowledge, and that would be your girlfriend? A. Uh-huh. Q. There is two people that you care for more than anything else, the two people being your girlfriend and your son, right? A. Uh-huh. Q. And some of the information discussing that you have talked with your girlfriend might be a benefit to you, okay, I am sitting here telling you I am not saying that we are going to put her on the stand, all right? A. Uh-huh. Q. But we are looking for credibility. A. Uh-huh.
76 Q. And we have heard that word, and you have heard that word before from me. We are looking for things that make you credible, all right. There are many people involved in this investigation, not just me. I happen to be the guy that is doing the report, but there is many people involved, many agencies and many people. There is no doubt some of them doubt you, okay, and I am the one that has to be satisfied. A. Uh-huh. Q. Okay, but it would
77 be nice if you would satisfy all of them.A. Uh-huh. Q. And I am sure we can do it with your cooperation and like I said, and it says end of side one of tape, beginning of side two, and he continues. He says, I think I know you. I know you think I think and you have and how you operate and I think we can honestly come to the outcome. I think we would have been at that outcome a couple months given some additional time with, okay, and you say what? A. Uh-huh. ARANYOS. I think we - - at any time he knows what we are coming from, and I have made my point about how I feel, and how he is going to respond to some of the things, and knowing full well I pointed some of my doubts are. A. Uh-huh. ARANYOS.And the reason for my doubts and without getting into specifics, all right, and knowing where we are going to go into a lengthy interview, again, I have got questions, things that bother me. One of them being the bank bag and the shoes. All right? A. Uh-huh. ARANYOS. Knowing that you said you could possibly take us to them? A. Uh-huh.
78 ARANYOS. Are they in a hidden place somebody else will not have access to. A. Yes, I mean, you know, the same thing in the plea bargain. I didn't say I was positive and the same thing I told you, okay. Or I am just making it known, and the bank bag I believe is at a friend's house of mine, and the shoes I believe are kind of like out back of a friend's house between the camp and Brenda's house.
79 Q. Okay. Would anybody other than yourself, your friend, have destroyed the bank bag?A. No, if it's same bank bag I am thinking of, he has still got it. Q. Okay. Now describe the bank bag. A. It was green. Q. Anything else.
80 A. It was like a greenish-blue color, (inaudible).Q. How did you get the bank bag? A. I never got it. I just knew that Jay had it, and I believe he gave it to Mark. Q. You never touched the bag? A. No. Q. You never had it in your hands? A. No. Q. Did you see Jay with the bag in his hands? A. Yes. Q. Did you see Jay open the bag? A. Yes, I did, yeah. I did see, (inaudible). Q. Where did the contents go? Do you know what was in the bag? A. There was nothing in the bag when, (inaudible). Q. Okay, so there was absolutely - - when you first saw the bag, you saw nothing in the bag? A. No.
81 Q. Okay, the shoes. A. The shoes I believe are up by his camp. Q. Okay. Did you put the shoes there? A. No. Q. Did you see Jay put the shoes there? A. I know Jay had the shoes when we was by the camp, and I recall him telling me that is where he threw them.
82 Q. You saw the shoes.A. Somewhat in a bag, yeah.
83 Q. That's the first time you saw the - -A. - - that's the only time, okay. Q. What color were they? A. They were white, I believe. I don't even know. It was dark when I seen them, (inaudible), shoes because that's when I dropped (inaudible). Q. Were they high heels, (inaudible)? Q. How do you know they were Kathy Wilson’s shoes? A. Because they came from where Kathy Wilson was, okay. Q. How do you know that? A. Because I was there. |
84
MR. MASSA: May it please the Court, that's the third reference - - there is nothing in the record to indicate the shoes were at the crime scene.MR. SMITH: Yes, there is.
MR. MASSA: I would be happy to take this up at side-bar.
MR. SMITH: This map was submitted into evidence,
85
and it says shoes and shoes tops.MR. MASSA:. May we approach the bench Your Honor?
THE COURT: All right.
(The following discussion was had at side-bar.).
MR. MASSA: May it please the Court, Commonwealth Exhibit No. 16 is a large map of artifacts and indicates there amongst other items indicated the sole of the shoe and a shoe top, period. Those are the only references made on this exhibit to those two items. Dr. Aires (spelled phonetically) on direct testimony or on cross to the best of my recollection was not asked about those two items, and they were not introduced as items of evidence by the Commonwealth. My sole objection is as to the line of cross-examination by Mr. Smith is that he is making reference to a pair of shoes which he is implying were found in this crime scene and no fair inference from the Commonwealth Exhibit nor any physical evidence at this point in time indicates that a pair of female shoes were found at the scene. That's my objection.
MR. SMITH: In response to that, I think clearly the Commonwealth submitted this exhibit listing the clothing and artifacts, that among those clothing and artifacts is this shoe sole and top and, in fact, when the Commonwealth witness was on the stand I specifically asked her questions concerning those two items. She confirmed they were located there. The map refers to the victim. I don't think they were listing
86
everybody else’s things. They were introducing them, and the Commonwealth has in their possession photographs which confirms the existence of the shoe and shoe top, and we requested the Commonwealth bring those photographs to trial.MR. MASSA: They will be.
THE COURT: Does the Commonwealth have the photographs of the shoe and the show top or the sole and the shoe top?
MR. MASSA: Yes.
THE COURT: What is the number of this exhibit?
MR. MASSA: Fifteen, 16.
THE COURT: In the Court's opinion, the Commonwealth placed the exhibit into evidence and it depicts there various items of what Mrs. Aries stated was that she saw and she described. The only conclusive inference is that the sole of the shoe and the shoe top is that of the victim-and in the Court's opinion is not misleading the jury in any way for the Commonwealth (sic) to cross-examine Brown on the identity of those artifacts and his knowledge of where they were and that he was allegedly in the possession of them with the defendant. So the Court moves that there has been no misleading and the defense may continue his cross-examination.
MR. MASSA: Thank you.
(End of discussion at side-bar.)
MR. SMITH: Could I have my last question read
87
back?(Question read back by court reporter.)
BY MR. SMITH:
|
Q. Accepting the fact that you were there, I understand that you did see Jay pick up - - pick them up and put them in the bag. A. He picked them up when we was there. He picked up a bunch of stuff, and when we got there, there was nothing
88 in my van, and when we left he had a bag of stuff. He had a shirt and different items he threw in the van.
89 Q. All right, okay, again, we are going to get into details.A. Uh-huh. Q. More about this, but I am curious, okay. A. Uh-huh. Q. One more thing, the van, how did we get to the Chautauqua Mall? A. Her van, Jay dropped it off.
90 Q. What time?A. It was approximately I would say 5:00, because he called me at about roughly 6:00, 6:30 from the Foot Avenue Quality and I, you know, I had been to the Chautauqua Mall enough to know that is a rough estimate of the time it would take to walk from there to, (inaudible) you know, coming down Baker Street. Q. Okay, where was she? A. When? Q. When he parked her van. A. In Lander, around Lander, (inaudible). General area okay. Q. So he took her, left her and then come back. A. Uh-huh. Q. When he came back you went back with him. A. Uh-huh. Q. Okay.
A. Well, not - - there wasn't, I'd say - - let's say he got to my house roughly 7:30, 8:00. It must have been 1:30 maybe when he left my house. Q. Okay. Do you know where the keys to the van are? Did you ever see the keys? A. No. I know they, (inaudible), but I never. Q. Now, do you know where they went. A. It almost seems like I knew, but I am not going to swear that, (inaudible), told me but I know they were gone, (inaudible). Q. But you never later that night, the next day, whatever, you never saw her keys. A. I seen the key that was like (inaudible), but it was nothing like I, you know, (inaudible), I just seen, (inaudible), and I recognize (inaudible). Q. You gave us at one time a description of a small ring of keys and racked my mind, (inaudible) it was some kind of doodad at the end of it.
92 A. On the key chain this was all I remember seeing was a steel thing that was about this round, and I mean like I said, I seen them real quick, and there was like a steel thing that was approximately, I'd say that big around, and it looked like the Marlboro key chain you get when you buy Marlboro cigarettes.Q. As a matter of fact, you say Marlboro. That's what, you know, I think that's what you said before. A. That's
93 what I told you before.?: Yeah. Q. Yeah. Where did you see those keys? A. In Jay's possession. O. All right. Where? Were you at your house? A. In the van, he was in my van. See, he drove out there and when he got in the van, he went to stick and, (inaudible), keys in the ignition and that's, you know, that's the, (inaudible), I seen, (inaudible), got a couple minutes left. So there is no, (inaudible), there is everybody laughs and talks at once get hooked up and I will get shot. Q. You give me an approximate time and how the purse ended up on 62. A. It was approximately 4:30. Q. How did it end up there. A. He threw it. Q. Who threw it?
94 A. Jay, he had his, as a matter of fact, I don't - - I don't know. You asked me just as, (inaudible), piece of evidence that I don't
95 really, (inaudible), but you know, and when, you know, he mentioned your name when he first came to my house I, you know, and I it seemed like it was a credit card or if, you know, what kind of card it was, but it didn't have her picture just, (inaudible). He had something with her name on it.Q. Something with her name. And you saw that? A. Yes.
96 ARANYOS. As far as - - I don't mean to interrupt, but as far as he hasn't asked, but I mean, you have on previous occasions, how do you know anything at all about the purse. A. About the purse, Jay kind of explained it when he was there. He went - - when he first seen her, you know, he seen her with the money bag, and that's why he decided to hit her, and he mentioned that he, you know, just kind of tossed things, (inaudible), you know, because then that was the same, you know, and he just went on, you know, (inaudible), and stuff that we committed, you know, he always told me, you know, about the, (inaudible), in the backyard and all this other - - all this other things and just explain how he did it, you know. Q. So what you are saying is he saw her with the bank bag and hit her because she was carrying a bank bag. A. Uh-huh. Q. Knowing full well what you told me before, that you and he weren't talking about - - MR. SMITH: Just a second. May I approach the bench, Your Honor? (Off the reecord discussion was held at side-bar.)
97 |
(Lunch recess taken.)
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Michael let's continue with the top of the next page that's marked on the bottom of Page 157.
A. Start at the top?
Q. Michael - -
|
HERZOG: Michael, we are going to end here very shortly. Something of information contained in my 100 and so page report dealing almost specifically with your interviews, most of the information that you gave me was probably pretty true and correct, not necessarily in the right order. Already some of the things that you told me you actually told me before, maybe not in entire detail. Some of the stuff is not new to me, right. BROWN: Uh-huh. HERZOG: Before when you were talking to me I realized you were telling some of the truth. Right. I knew you were. But some of the stuff was distorted in ways, For what reason. Why did you distort some of it. Why didn't you tell me. You told me - - for instance, you told me that Kathy - - that Jay said it was Kathy Wilson. BROWN: Yes. HERZOG: You told me that. I know you did last time. BROWN: Yeah, yeah. HERZOG: You didn't tell me about the card. Why didn't you tell - - why didn't you tell me about the
98 card. BROWN: Well, after, you know, some of these things, you know, I remembered, (inaudible), different things every day some things I forget, some things I remember, you know, it's like, you know, what 20 months or ago or something this happened. That's, you know, it's quite difficult to remember everything, you know, at one time. HERZOG: Okay. All right. I think we are going to end now. Again, I don't want to harp, but tonight, as I told you before think about it, every little detail. It's for your benefit. You're the one that is going to better yourself in this. I told you something a long time ago. There is only one person that can help you, and it's you. BROWN: Me, right.
|
|
99 ARANYOS: I want to make it clear to you, John, (inaudible), and we talked and he realizes it is in his own best interest, and that's who we are concerned about, Michael Brown. That's right, and Aranyos says he has got to do the best for Michael Brown and he has made this very clear, and we discussed this over and over again to tell 100 percent of the truth and again, there are things you haven't covered here and, (inaudible), communicated to me that you will get in the future even with respect to some of the questions you have asked, and he has given me additional information that you haven't gotten into here like some of the physical evidence, I don't want to, (inaudible), mislead you in thinking he hasn't given everything in question. I know full well, and as I said, something, it's going to be a lot of detail answer.BROWN: Well, I will tell you right now, you know, as far as bits and pieces as far as the card and stuff but, you know, I will tell you straight, (inaudible), I did not rape her or kill her. I am not - - I am going to tell you straight out right now - - that's what you said, right? (BROWN): Yeah. (SMITH): So you are telling him here and now you are going to tell the whole truth the next day, right, when they get into detail? (BROWN): Yes. (SMITH): All right, but tomorrow I am going to ask you the
100 same thing, okay, and you say what?A. Uh-huh. Q. And you say, (inaudible), and then he says, okay, I have got no problem with that. All right, and you know, Mr. Aranyos said we are concerned with only one person and you say what? A. Uh-huh. Q. And he says I told you a long time I am concerned with Michael Brown, and you say what? A. Yeah. Q. And he says that's 110 percent. I was honest about it then and I am honest about it now, and you say what? A. Uh-huh. Q. And then this taped statement is ending and Aranyos said before we end when would we intend to meet, and you name the hour we are going to do it, tomorrow or not, and yes, and then essentially they go on with conversation about the court reporter. You indicated you had a problem with female court reporter being there and they indicated they would have a male being there. A. Yes.
|
MR. MASSA: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
| Statement of Dec. 20, 1989 |
|