| Statement of Jan. 24, 1990 |
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Primarily this section concerns attorney Barry Smith's cross-examination of Michael Brown on his statement of January 24, 1990. It should be noted that this is the last actual interview by the authorities of Mr. Brown. The rest of Michael's "statements" (over the next 15 months, excepting only his statement of 4-4-90, to his "attorney") are in fact simply REPORTS by the police on what they say he said. There is also a reference to a police report of January 26, 1990, concerning the photos of the envelopes and Danny Boys T-shirt. Specifically, that these items were not located at Buckley's campsite - but at the "Riverside Road" location, by the Jamestown police - on May 24, 1988. Also interesting how this all appears rather obfuscated. Also quite strange is the police report of January 25, 1990, where they are (re) introducing the Carlberg Road location.
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Statement of January 24, 1990 |
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Riverside Road where you stop and have some beers and he puts this stuff in the T-shirt?A. I don't know.
Q. No particular reason?
A. I don't know.
Q. Let me show you what has been marked for identification purposes as Defendant's Exhibit No. 40, which is a police report dated 1-18-90, correct? Right here is your date.
A. Yeah, you're right.
MR. SMITH: Move for admission of Defendant's Exhibit 40.
MR. MASSA: May I see it?
MR. SMITH: Move for admission of Defendant's Exhibit 40.
MR. MASSA: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Now, in this police report, Michael, second page, you say a couple interesting things to the police, and this is a statement they take from you on 1-18-90, two days after you gave that last statement, right?
First of all, you say here, well, let me read it to you. Quote, Brown also advised when asked if Jay ever said he would kill someone, Buckley told my sister Nova he would
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kill her ex-husband for her if she wanted to. Also once he went to this house, and Jay told me an old lady lived there alone. We went there to brake (sic) in, and Jay told me when he gets inside, if the old lady wakes up, Jay was going to kill her. I asked how Jay was going to kill her, and Brown advised he had hit her over the head with a pipe he was carrying. Is that the truth or a lie?A. That's the truth.
Q. Where is that house?
A. It was a house in Falconer.
Q. Did you show the police that house?
A. I showed them the one that he had planned on breaking into.
Q. You don't say planned here, do you?
A. I don't know.
Q. Don't you say later on this actually happened? Are you saying that you planned it or that happened?
A. I believe that was the one I was telling them about the one he planned, but I did show him one that did get broke into.
Q. Did this happen? He was planning on hitting the lady over the head with a pipe he was carrying?
A. Yes.
Q. That actually happened or it was planned?
A. Planned.
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Q. Next sentence. Mr. Brown advised that while they were inside and in the old lady's bedroom Jay knocked something off the dresser. It doesn't sound like this is planned, it sounds like it happened. Isn't that what you're telling the police? Brown advised he was scared to death because he thought that the lady might wake up, but she didn't. You told the police that actually happened?A. Yeah.
Q. It didn't happen, did it?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. You said it was planned?
A. I thought I was talking about the one he had planned.
Q. Where did it happen?
A. Falconer.
Q. What is the street?
A. It's a road that runs off of Falconer Street.
Q. What is the address? What is the color of the house?
A. It's either - - I think it's blue. I don't know what the address is.
Q. When did it happen?
A. A long time ago.
Q. A long time ago? Well, it - - I mean, if you met Mr. Buckley in February 1988, and the last you saw him was May
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21 of 1988, it had to happen in that time frame, didn't it?A. It was while he were still working at Bush Industries.
Q. Any reason or explanation you have as to why the police can't find anything about this crime? None at all?
A. Maybe it doesn't (sic) reported. I don't know.
Q. It must not have been reported. And you can't show them where the house was?
A. Yeah, I did.
Q. You can?
A. I already did.
Q. You did? And they went to that house - -
A. I believe so.
Q. - - and the lady said nothing is missing?
A. I don't know if they went there or not.
Q. We will ask them. Let me ask you this. The next paragraph says Brown was showed several pictures of the campsite, referring to Mr. Buckley's campsite. Three of the pictures brought response from him. To Picture No. 1, the last time that I was at the camp was two days before Kathy Wilson was kidnapped. That's what you said. Is that true?
A. I don't know if it was exactly two days or not. The few days that I actually went up in there, it was a few days before that he was still living there.
Q. He said the last time he went to the campsite was
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two days before Kathy Wilson's kidnapping. You told this jury last week the last time you went up to the campsite there was only a pair of woman's pants laying there, and it was after Buckley had left the campsite?A. I said that was the last time when Buckley was still living there.
Q. That's not what it says. It says the last time I was at the camp was two days before Kathy Wilson was kidnapped. That's what you told the police.
A. What I just told you it was a couple days before this when Jay was still living there I was actually up in there.
Q. You go on to say, in this picture I have never seen that plastic water jug. They are showing you a picture of his campsite. The toilet paper is boughten [sic] or from a store. Before the last day I was there, he always got toilet paper from my house. Jay never bought the paper. I never saw the paper at his campsite before. It's probably that paper that had about Kathy Wilson. Is that true or a lie? Was there a newspaper up there that had about Kathy Wilson on it?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Picture No. 3 is that of a white bank envelope, Marine Midland Bank. Brown stated, I don't have a bank account, and I don't have a checking account. I know Jay
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doesn't have one either, a checking or banking account. So if that is at his campsite where did it come from? That's what you are asking the police. So you're more or less indicating to them, are you not, that that bank envelope is at his campsite and that proves he killed Kathy Wilson, right?A. No.
Q. No?
A. No.
Q. In the same picture that they showed you there, they also showed you the Danny Boys T-shirt, did they not, with the bank envelope?
A. I can't remember.
Q. They didn't?
A. I know at one time I think they showed me a photo, but I don't know exactly what it was all about.
Q. You don't know what it was all about. Let me show you Defendant's Exhibit No. 42, police statement 1-26-90, right?
A. Yeah.
MR. SMITH: Move for admission of Defendant's Exhibit 42, Your Honor.
MR. MASSA: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Let me read you this, Mr. Brown. Detective Joseph
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Welch, Jamestown Police Department was shown Pictures 1, 2 and 3, which was in a folder marked Buckley campsite. Welch advised that Photo 3 was not taken at Buckley campsite but was taken on 5-24-88 at a location off US 62 on the west side of the road between Kiantone Road and New York-Pennsylvania state line. This is a private road which runs from US 62 west up to the top of the hill and then back into the woods. Welch advised that along with Picture No. 3, pictures marked 4, 5, 6 and 7 were taken of the same area. In addition, there were still some more photos taken but Welch at this time don't know where they were.They showed you the wrong picture, Michael. They showed you a picture of Danny Boys T-shirt and the envelope and told you it was from Buckley's campsite and you wholeheartedly agreed with them. You said, yes, that's Buckley's. They showed you the wrong pictures. They showed you pictures they took of some other location where they found a shirt and a bank envelope and thought it might be relevant. They took pictures of it, and all the sudden you have got a problem, you identified it as being at Buckley's campsite and being Buckley's, and they made a mistake. How do you figure that one?
A. I never told them there was a Danny Boys T-shirt.
Q. So from now on when we go through your statements, you're not going to have any Danny Boys T-shirt in there and
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you're not going to have any bank envelopes in there, and you're not all of the sudden going to say, oh, we stopped at this location that Detective Welch found this other stuff at, and we started putting stuff in this Danny Boys T-shirt and all that just because they then tell you hey, we made a mistake. You are not going to add that location to your story from now on because of the mistake the police made?A. No.
Q. Not at all? But here you are saying in this statement, 1-18, first, that oh, yeah, that's the stuff at Buckley campsite and that's Buckley shirt, and we will get to that. And they showed you the wrong one. I will show you what is marked for identification as Defendant's Exhibit No. 41, another police statement dated 1-25-90, right?
A. Yeah.
MR. SMITH: Move the admission of Defendant's Exhibit 41, Your Honor.
MR. MASSA: No objection.
THE COURT: What was it, 41?
MR. SMITH: A police statement dated 1-25-90.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. In this one, Mr. Brown, Stewart called this officer and advised after being advised by this officer, Brown saying Buckley might have thrown beer cans on Carlsberg Road,
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that he and Captain Wallace drove to the location, in fact, recovered a Busch beer can in the area that Brown stated it might have been thrown out. True or not?A. I don't know if they did or not.
Q. You didn't tell them where to go?
A. Captain Wallace?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't know who Captain Wallace is.
Q. If we come to one of these statements where you say he had a Danny Boys T-shirt and he is definitely wearing a Danny Boys T-shirt, and you identify it as a Danny Boys T-shirt, and if we come to that where you say it isn't in here, then that would make you a perjurer on the stand, right?
A. I said I don't remember referring to it as a Danny Boys T-shirt.
Q. We will see.
MR. MASSA: Approach the bench, please, Your Honor?
(Off-the-record discussion at side-bar.)
MR. SMITH: Mr. Brown, let's go to your statement of 1-24-90. I will give you a copy of it. For the Court's benefit, Your Honor, it's marked Defense Exhibit 43, statement of 1-24-90. I would move for its admission at this time.
MR. MASSA: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted. What do you call it?
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MR. SMITH: Another statement he gave to police, Your Honor.BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Mr. Brown, it starts out and says Mr. Herzog is there, John Aranyos, your attorney, and you're present in Warren County Courthouse, He reads your rights to you, asks if you desire to talk to him. You say yeah. And he has you sign a waiver of rights which your attorney witnesses?
A. Yeah.
Q. First question, all right, Mike, as before at this stage we are trying to clear up questions we have about this incident. Knowing full well times are important, and also knowing full well some of the times you can't give us, and remembering what has been said from the beginning, if you don't know, don't guess. Just try to be factual with us and tell us, all right? I am going to start off. First, I am going to show you a couple of pictures. Do you know what these pictures are? Do you have any idea what they are? What do you say?
A. I don't know where that one is. That one looks like a bridge we were on the other day when we came from New York.
Q. A bridge who was on, you and the police?
A. I guess that's what it means. I don't know.
Q. If you're saying the other day, you're not talking
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about May 1988?A. No.
Q. He says all right, Michael. This is the Akeley intersection, all right?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. So he is showing you an aerial photograph of the Akeley intersection, isn't he, right?
A. I guess.
Q. This is, in fact, coming from New York State to Pennsylvania, and it's a blown-up shot of that little triangle down there, and you're garbled. And he says here, all right, these are photo are same thing? (Sic)
A. Sitting this way.
Q. Both without color, this is a New York and this is PA coming down here, we drew a map the other day, and you showed us where turned (sic) and what you, (sic) all right? Just draw a diagram how you turn, where you went, what you did just as a matter of record. If you want to use this as A, this is the main route, this is 62, all right? This is the bridge that goes across the Conewango River, all right? There is a stop sign right here, and if you look close, it's right there on the information that gave (sic) us before you were traveling south, right? You say what?
A. I guess.
Q. Well, and this is the way it goes. This is north
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and this is south, all right?A. Yeah.
Q. Okay, and Mr. Aranyos says you understand what he is asking you to do. If you're proceeding along the road in a southerly manner, when you reach this point, what he wants you to do is draw a line or arrows indicating the path of your vehicle, what you actually did?
A. Oh.
Q. You said before about the bridge. You didn't go down near the bridge?
A. I just remembered bridge (sic) from seeing it from up there. I don't remember going down to the bridge. No, we might have come down. I know when we come in, we come in this way and it's garbled.
Q. What do you say there, Michael? I just remembered the bridge from seeing it up there. I don't remember going down to the bridge, no? Lie or the truth?
A. It's a lie.
Q. (Marking) why did you tell that lie?
A. I don't know.
Q. You said specifically did not cross that bridge there. As a matter of fact, you said this morning to this jury, I never said that, and right there it is.
A. I said I didn't remember saying it.
Q. Do you remember saying that now?
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A. I guess, it's right here.Q. Uh-huh. Mr. Herzog didn't like you saying that, though, does he? We are going to explore that a little bit. Look at this one. This one is clear. These are hard to - - and this is the same intersection. This is coming south. And you say what?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Herzog says, this is where you drew right there. That's that thing right there. That is the stop sign right there. This is 62. That road goes down to the bridge, and you were coming down here, according to what you told us the last time. You say what?
A. Yeah.
Q. They are not showing you which way you are going, and you are not saying yeah, are they?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Then it says you were coming here, and Mr. Aranyos says, what would you normally do here? You would make a left turn, and T - - do you know - - T is Tridico. Tridico says right, and Mr. Aranyos then says this, again, would be proceeding in a northerly manner without having to make a turn, but again, they are asking to the best of your recollection the path of your vehicle. And you say what?
A. Uh.
Q. And you're doing what in parentheses? Looking at
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pictures, right?A. Yes.
Q. And you say what?
A. I think we turned down a little bit closer to this. We come down and come around this way.
Q. Mr. Herzog says you definitely made the loop? You didn't turn at this intersection?
A. No.
Q. Why did you make that loop? That's Mr. Tridico asking you.
A. Because when we come down right about there is where he said we passed him. (sic)
Q. Mr. Aranyos said you already went by the intersection?
A. We just about went past the intersection right there, and I just spun in there and, you know, come down and turned around right down in here and come back out.
Q. Mr. Herzog says okay, let's go back to what you told us before. You told us before when you went by Swede Hill Road, he said you missed the intersection?
A. I don't know where Swede Hill Road is.
Q. Mr. Herzog says, the road back up towards New York State. What do you say?
A. Yes, after we passed that, which is just a short ways up here, after we passed that, we was down in here.
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Q. And you told us before, and we drew a map that when you got to this intersection, you turned here, went down here and came back up to a stop sign?A. Yes, this here is how this should be, right, just like this?
Q. You are asking him, right? This is how it should be, right?
A. That's what it says.
Q. Yeah, and Mr. Herzog says, just like this. This is New York State. This is Warren. You said before, and I am not putting words in your mouth. I am telling you what you told me before. You said you come down and you turned right here. And you say what?
A. Yeah.
Q. Mr. Herzog says well, now we have got yourself going up here and turning and coming back. And you say what?
A. Right. I was thinking this was coming from New York and coming down and out. We went in, if this side here is New York side.
Q. Mr. Herzog says yeah. Tridico says yes. And you say what?
A. We come down and went around that way.
Q. And Mr. Herzog says, when you came back up here which way did you go from there?
A. We come towards New York again.
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Q. Mr. Herzog says you went back this way?
A. Yeah.
Q. Mr. Aranyos says, does it make sense on this one? This is what he is trying to tell you. This is New York over here.
A. All right.
Q. Mr. Aranyos says for reference purposes we turn it because that's the problem. New York State is up this way. You would be coming down from New York State.
A. Yes, turn down, and that's it.
Q. Mr. Tridico says turn left. Did you go across that bridge?
A. No.
Q. And you say no. For the second time in that statement you say no, I did not go across that bridge, and you're now saying that's a lie right?
A. Yes.
Q. Why (marking)?
A. I don't know. I don't remember.
Q. You didn't? You turned around right in there? And you say what?
A. Turned around right in there, no, we must have went across the bridge, because I remember a store or a - - let me see. I don't even remember it was like a little store some kind of food sign or something down there.
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Q. And Mr. Tridico says yeah. And you say what?A. We had to cross the bridge - -
MR. MASSA: Your Honor, I am going to object to the characterizations, the mispronunciations, the reading questions of statements, the editorializing, the acting. I would be very happy to provide the Court with a copy so the Court can follow along and see the misinterpretations that are being placed. I make an objection and standing objection.
MR. SMITH: The word says y-e-a-h. I think that means, yeah.
THE COURT: Is there any specific words that in this last statement be has misstated?
MR. MASSA: Well, Your Honor, from the bottom of page - - the middle of Page 3 to where I just interposed an objection it's obvious that Mr. Brown, if you make a fair interpretation is having difficulty looking at a diagram or a photo or whatever, doesn't know direction, New York State from Pennsylvania, he then clearly indicates he must have gone across the bridge because he turned around in a store and yet Mr. Smith is interrupting him at precisely where it's advantageous for Mr. Smith to interrupt him to make it look like this witness at the time giving the statement wasn't confused but is misleading and distorting information. I really think if a statement is going to be read, it should be read in context and fairly and not interposed with adjective
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or exclamations or reading what wasn't there.MR. SMITH: Your Honor, I didn't read a word that wasn't there and every word that was there was read.
THE COURT: Is there any words there that have put (sic) in or left out?
MR. MASSA: That's not what I am stating. I am stating. Your Honor, where the pauses and interruptions are distorts the fair and logical interpretation of the document.
THE COURT: That's going to be a matter for the jury. That is going to go into evidence. They are going to read it, and also you will have an opportunity at redirect if you think that Mr. Smith is putting an improper spin - -
MR. MASSA: In all fairness, Your Honor, I will ask the people that know, because they know the answers.
MR. SMITH: Is he saying this witness doesn't know the answers?
THE COURT: I don't know. I don't think that's a fair interpretation. We will see.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Mr. Brown, what we just read, you said twice, did you not, I did not cross the bridge?
A. I answered no to the question, yeah.
Q. Twice. Two times. And they keep at you, don't they? And then finally you say, yeah, I went across the bridge, saw a little store and all that, right?
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A. I told them I seen the store, and it's obviously (sic) we had to cross the bridge to get to the store, I guess.Q. You are not saying that to please the police and knowing what they are after and trying to accommodate them, are you?
A. No.
Q. You didn't try to please the police when you told them that the Danny Boys T-shirt and the bank envelope were at his campsite?
A. No.
Q. And then he says yeah, and you say what? We had to have crossed the bridge, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Mr. Herzog says okay, now, so when you went here, you evidently went further and across the bridge and turned around and came back? What do you say?
A. Then turned and and (sic) came back.
Q. Mr. Herzog says give me an idea. You told us before there was a woman walking a dog. And you say what?
A. Yeah.
Q. Where was she at? Mr. Tridico says, here is New York State.
A. Yeah. I don't even know. I am just trying to figure it out. When we came down it seems like she was walking down this road right here.
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Q. Mr. Herzog says okay, as you - - then you went? (sic)A. Because on the way back, you know, I noticed her.
Q. When you were coming back up? That was what Mr. Tridico said.
A. When we was coming back up is when I noticed her.
Q. So you made - - on this one you made that turn, you go down and when you were coming bank up you feel she is coming off this side road? And what do you say?
A. I think so, yeah.
Q. The last four pages, Mr. Brown, you don't think you were being led by the police in what you were saying here?
A. No.
Q. Not a bit?
A. No.
Q. You just weren't agreeing with what they were telling you happened, were you?
A. I was telling them what happened.
Q. You were telling them what happened?
A. Pretty much, yeah.
Q. Herzog, do you know which way she was going?
A. She was coming towards the road, towards this road.
Q. Okay. Towards the road that you were on, you are saying?
A. Yeah.
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Q. Okay, and nothing else in this area drew your attention? You remember seeing a - - some kind of food sign or something a store where you turned around?A. I don't know if it was quite - - whoops, if it was the - - you come down, and there is a road that comes down like this any (sic) end of this road.
Q. And Mr. Tridico says yeah, over here you mean on this side?
A. Yeah, well, it comes - - well, it comes - - well, we almost went there the other day when we come back from New York. The road comes like this, and there is a little store doohickey thing or whatever right over across the intersection.
Q. You almost went there the other day when you came back from New York State? You have been riding in police cars how many times through this area? The time they initially went to the crime scene with your right? This time, the day before when they are taking you out and running you around?
A. I believe only two days, two different times.
Q. They are taking you out and running you around these spots and then coming back and taking statements from you as to what is where and who is what? Is that what they are doing?
A. As they like bring me back to New York, you know, I pointed out a couple places to them and stuff like that and
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they went and took a statement on it, yeah.Q. They take you and point out a few places to you and come back and take a statement from you on it?
A. Or I would be giving a statement first, and I remember this place, and they would want me to show it to them, so I would.
Q. And Mr. Herzog says that's where you turned around?
A. That's where we turned around was right there.
Q. Nothing else coming down here and coming back except the woman walking the dog drew your attention?
A. That's all I seen.
Q. Nobody stared at you, nobody looked at you, nobody blew the horn, nothing like that?
A. No, not that I know of.
Q. That true or a lie?
A. I don't remember nothing like that.
Q. Okay, that's the truth. All right, okay, all right, you know, hey, that's - - that's what Mr. Herzog says, and you say yeah. And Mr. Herzog says all right, Michael, and then ah, and there is a pause. Why don't we put your initials so we can use this in reference, and you say, and also right there, and you say right there, right?
A. Right here I said.
(Document marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 45.)
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Mr. SMITH: I will show you Exhibit No. 45.MR. MASSA: May I see that?
MR. SMITH: Move for admission of 45, Your Honor.
MR. MASSA: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
MR. SMITH: These are the two maps you were explaining from, aren't they? You drew these lines, right?
MR. MASSA: I believe those are photographs.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Photographs, I'm sorry. Copies of aerial photographs of the Akeley intersection, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. When you first started out when the officers first started questioning you, this is the line you drew. You didn't cross the bridge. You turned around and came back on 62, right? Then after they questioned you a bit, you drew another line on this map showing you went across the bridge, right, and turned around way down here?
A. I don't know if that was the purpose on there. Right there it doesn't go down no further.
Q. But you don't have a bridge there, and you're turning around right there. You drew that line, right?
A. It would be obviously difficult to draw a line any further. It would run off the paper.
Q. But you didn't draw a line right off the paper.
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You turned it around and came back up, right?A. That's what it is on there.
Q. That's what you did. And you told them the first two times no, we didn't go across the bridge. And you drew on the map something that indicated that. And then when they quit asking you questions, you drew another map that had you going across the bridge, right?
A. I guess.
Q. You say here you didn't see nobody else, no other cars, no nothing. Do you kind of get the indication here that they can't find the lady and a dog but found somebody in a vehicle that kind of saw? You are you getting that impression from the questioning?
A. I don't know.
Q. But you are going to remember right here, you said, we didn't see any other vehicles at that intersection, right?
A. Not that I could have remembered.
Q. Later on in other statements if all the sudden you start confirming what they are trying to tell you or if you start saying, we saw another vehicle with a lady, that's right, we didn't see the woman and a dog, that would be a lie, right?
A. I don't believe I ever told them I never seen a lady with a dog.
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Q. Okay. What about the vehicle, the other vehicle? It's not in here?A. No, it's not.
Q. Does it pop up later in your other statements?
A. I don't know.
Q. Okay. Let's go on. Yeah, anywhere right here. I am going to show you a couple more pictures of this being of the mall. Now they are showing you mall pictures, weren't they?
A. That's what it says.
Q. And he says okay, and you say what?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. He says this is the parking lot. Let me get it this way. He must have turned the map around, and you say what?
A. That's the Quality.
Q. That's the Quality. This is Sears. That's the entrance. That's what Mr. Herzog says, and you say what?
A. To the movie theater.
Q. You are not unfamiliar with this mall? You have been there hundreds of times, right, before May 18, 1988?
A. I have been there a few times, yeah.
Q. I mean, it's' the mall in Jamestown. There isn't other malls. This is the big mall in Jamestown. We are talking about the Chautauqua Mall for the benefit of our
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Beaver County audience, right?A. I think it's the only mall up there.
Q. Mr. Herzog says okay, you pretty much see how many cars are lined up there. Look at this and put an "X" in the area you saw Jay Buckley standing beside the vehicle the first time.
A. Let's say it would be right here.
Q. That's a lie, right?
A. Yeah. He wasn't standing there. I put an 'X' where her van was.
Q. But you had no problem marking an "X" on the map they showed you with the vehicles and spaces this way and that way, and you didn't have any problem putting an 'X' there showing exactly were Jay Buckley was standing next to her car, and Jay Buckley in fact was never standing next to her car because you never kidnapped her from the Chautauqua Mall, right?
A. (No response.)
Q. Now, as you look at it you're drawing an 'X' right there. This is the main entrance. That would be the first row coming in by Quality. It would be the Fairmont side of Quality; is that correct? See now here is the main entrance, and you say what?
A. Okay.
Q. You have got one row of single cars and you start
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double vehicles double vehicles double vehicle, okay?A. Okay, it was in a double line.
Q. Mr. Herzog says, okay, I know that this is - - take a look at this as to - - you're looking at Quality, and this is the entrance to the theater. Were you down on this end of Quality or were you, in fact, on this side of Quality down here where the single? What do you say?
A. We must have been right here because we were pretty close to the movie store, not to the movie store but the movie entrance and Sears.
Q. Is that a lie or the truth?
A. We was - - it was pretty close.
Q. You are saying you went back up for fingerprints and saw the vehicle there at that time. Was it at that location or not?
A. When we went back up there you mean?
Q. Yeah.
A. Pretty close, yeah.
Q. Pretty close?
A. It was in that area.
Q. So if you say in other statements it was parked in front of Quality, one statement it was parked in front of Sears and another statement it was parked in front of the movie store, do you have any reason for that?
A. They are right smack together.
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Q. So you could be right by saying any one of the three?A. It wouldn't be necessarily wrong.
Q. That's probably the kind of question you like; you can name any one of the three and be right at?
A. No.
Q. Mr. Herzog says okay, so we were back this way a little bit? And you say what?
A. Yeah.
Q. Mr. Herzog says, and I have not no idea how many aisles this is. This has to be somewhere in this area. This has to be one, two - - it has to be like in the third row. If that's where - - you are going to have to tell me because I don't know. Is he suggesting where the location of the vehicle is at that point in time?
A. No, he clearly - - it clearly states right here he states that he doesn't know where it was.
Q. Do you think that is really true? I mean, this is 1990. Mr. Herzog is investigating this case for six months now. Do you think he doesn't know where the van at the mall is recovered?
A. I didn't think that was true, but it says right here he didn't.
Q. He is kind of telling you, isn't he? Somewhere in this area. It has to be the third row. I am not going to
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tell you because I don't know, but he has already told you, hasn't he?A. Well, he probably - - I don't know. I cannot remember this night. I don't remember. I don't know.
Q. You don't know?
A. I wouldn't say he was telling me though.
Q. Would there be a reason why you would say movie store one time and Sears one time and Quality another time?
A. Because they are all right together.
Q. Because they were all right together?
A. Yes.
Q. And it doesn't matter which one you say. But Mr. Herzog is not telling you where the van is right there?
A. No.
Q. Mr. Aranyos then says, is this the same photograph we looked at last time? What do you make of that? What do you say?
A. I say yeah, I think it is pretty much.
Q. They showed you a photograph before this time and you didn't remember where it was from the last time you told them, right?
A. I don't know.
Q. Mr. Aranyos says, it looks the same, but it looks smaller. Mr. Herzog says probably because it was placed on the copy machine. Mr. Aranyos says, that's what I am saying,
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it was bigger and you could see it. And Mr. Herzog says yeah. And Mr. Tridico says, do you remember when you left that area which way you went? And you say what?A. Yeah.
Q. They are not making excuses, your attorney and Herzog, as to why you don't where the van is at, because the thing is too small and it was on the copy machine instead of being a blowup, and that's why you got it wrong? They are not making excuses for you, are they?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember when you left the area which way you went? And you say what?
A. I said yeah.
Q. And Mr. Tridico says when you left? And then what do you say?
A. We came out this - - and then it ends.
Q. And Mr. Herzog says now, this is the road that runs by Rex and down Fairmont Avenue? And you say what?
A. Yeah.
Q. And Mr. Tridico says, and the Hunt Road would be right here. And Mr. Herzog says let's stay with this one right here. And you say what?
A. All right.
Q. This right here. Mr. Herzog says, just stay here and see. You said you come in, you came around, you came
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around by Sears, and you say what?A. Right here.
Q. And then he says, isn't the pen writing and turns off the tape. You are not explaining to them the same way you entered and exited the mall as you do in other statements, right? Is that truth or a lie?
A. I - - I don't really know what it says in the other statements. I can't really - -
Q. We will cover the other statements. Let me ask you this. Is this the truth or a lie? This is the way you came in? Is this the way you exited?
A. The way I showed them, yeah.
Q. The road that runs by Rex and down to Fairmont Avenue. And you say yeah. Is that how you left or came into the mall?
A. Um, I don't know where Rex is and Fairmont Avenue is either, but I know the way that I did show them on that map was the accurate way.
Q. Mr. Brown, you show me, if I am not wrong, I am going to take a stab at drawing Chautauqua Mall here. Let's say we have a square here, right. We have the main road running from Jamestown, do we not, this way? This is main mall entrance coming in this way. This road runs through Lakewood, New York, Do you know what I mean, the road police stop you on if you're going 40 in a 35. And I don't know the
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name of that road. If you do, maybe you can help me.A. I don't know.
Q. Then along the side here we have another road that goes out here, and this is Sears back here, and there is another entrance to the mall over here which is a less used entrance than the main entrance out here, right?
A. I don't think - - I don't think so, no.
Q. There is a par three golf course up in here?
A. That's correct.
Q. And there is a road running there. And we have another road, this road connects to that, runs like this, right? And this road goes on down this way, and if you go out the road and down this road you can get to Pennsylvania, and if you travel it further you can get to Lander, the crime scene, but there is another road that runs this way, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. And Mister Donut, this is kind of like a highway, but it's not going through town. It's a bypass. It runs on the outskirts of Jamestown if you keep traveling it down where this runs right directly through Jamestown, right?
A. Both of them, the one on the bottom you drew there, that runs right into Third Street bridge, I believe, right through the center of Jamestown.
Q. Now, when you actually took Jay Buckley back to wipe these fingerprints down, which road did you take into the
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mall?A. On the way there, it wasn't neither one of them roads. We did come out onto the front road, but we didn't take either one of those roads.
Q. There is only two entrances to the mall, this one and this one.
A. You want to know what entrance we went into the mall?
Q. Which one?
A. It was the front one.
Q. So you're coming down this road, right?
A. Yeah, where the main drag is.
Q. Come down, pull in here and go back or whatever and wipe your fingerprints down and then leave?
A. Yeah.
Q. Which we do you leave?
A. When be left we pulled out by Sears.
Q. So you leave this way?
A. Would be the entrance, yeah, by Sears.
Q. Do you take a right or left here?
A. Go down.
Q. Go down? Right or left? When you come out of this exit, do you go right or left?
A. Left. Which would be down.
Q. Then where?
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A. Take another left when you get by the golf course.Q. And you come back this way, right (marking)?
A. Yeah.
Q. You are going into the mall this way and leave this way when you go back to wipe the fingerprints down?
A. Yeah.
Q. You explain to the police, did you not, when you were talking about going to the mall and telling them that you kidnapped her from the mall, you are talking about using this road both coming and going? You never come in the front entrance?
A. No, I don't believe so, no.
Q. We are going to see, all right? This question is how many times, Michael Brown, have you been to Jay Buckley's campsite?
A. Probably ten or 12 maybe.
Q. And it said, has anyone else been to the campsite. And you say Brenda and also Brian Snow, I guess that would be her brother. And Jeff Spetz (spelled phonetically), things like that. I am not interested in all that. Let's skip over it. But below in the paragraph above it says what?
A. But below in the paragraph above?
Q. My brother-in-law - -
A. All right. My brother-in-law went up there after Jay moved his stuff out. After this happened we went up
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there, me and my brother-in-law, to see if my stuff that was left up there was there, and ah, I guess that was all.Q. Is that true or a lie?
A. That's true.
Q. That's when you saw the woman's pants, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. And that's the only thing you saw right?
A. At that time I think so, yeah.
Q. And that's what we established, that was a couple weeks after he broke camp and left a couple weeks after Kathy Wilson was taken?
A. A few weeks after.
Q. He moved into his sister's house, Karen? Leaves the campsite and moves into Karen's house?
A. I don't know.
Q But that's all that is there when you were there, and you didn't put anything there, did you, with your brother-in-law that day?
A. No.
Q. Not a thing?
A. Maybe a cigarette butt or something.
Q. What did the stuff consist of that was at the campsite? What do you say?
A. I had a couple pair of pants, a couple of Harley Davidson shirts. That was it.
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Q. You forgot about that, didn't you.A. Forgot about what?
Q. Harley Davidson shirts, or are you saying they weren't there? You just thought they were there. I had a couple pair of pants, Harley - - did you find that stuff at the campsite or not?
A. It says, what did your stuff consist of at the campsite.
Q. So you don't find that stuff there?
A. No.
Q. Anybody else you know that went to the campsite?
A. That's what I just told you, Jeff Spetz, Brian Snow, Joyce Wilson's son and Joyce Wilson, I am sure has been there a couple of times.
Q. And he asked you Shelly Anderson? What do you say?
A. I don't think so. When he was camping up there, that is after we got our job at Amos's, and we never really seen her that much after that. She didn't like him that much, I guess anymore after he screwed her car up.
Q. Let's explore that a little bit. First of all, is the fact that she never went to his campsite, is that true?
A. Not that I know of, she never went.
Q. As far as you know, she never went to the campsite, right? Now there you say, and we really never seen
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her that much after that. She really didn't like him that much. Is that true?A. I guess. The way she talked, she didn’t, no. Especially anymore after he screwed her car up, and he screwed her car up before May 18, 1988, right?
A. I believe so.
Q. So she wouldn't exactly have any great desire to protect Jay Buckley, right?
A. I don't know.
Q. Mr. Herzog says, how many times did you stay overnight at the campsite yourself? And you say what?
A. Three.
Q. And Mr. Herzog says, not four, not two, definitely three?
A. Maybe four. Not that many, just a couple, you know.
Q. And he says when you stayed there, who else stayed with you?
A. Brenda a couple of times, and that was it.
Q. Jay was there?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. When you would go up there, where did you park? If you went up there today, where would you park your vehicle?
A. If I was driving a vehicle, the one time I went up in the vehicle right up in front of it, right out in front of
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the way you go down.Q. Between the houses where the field is?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. You just park alongside the road?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. On the same side of the road?
A. I believe that was what I said, but that's okay.
Q. I'm sorry. You said on the same side of the road. And Mr. Herzog says did you ever drive down in? And you say?
A. No.
Q. Why didn't you drive down in? What do you say?
A. Because it was kind of wet and muddy, someone's yard, we weren't supposed to be up there.
Q. Do you get the impression when the police are asking you all these questions about the campsite that at some point in time you should put Kathy Wilson at the campsite?
A. I don't know.
Q. No.
A. Not really, I guess, no.
Q. You do later on put her at the campsite though, don't you?
A. At one time I think.
Q. But that didn't come from them asking you questions about it, right?
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A. Not really totally, I guess, no.Q. Mr. Herzog says okay. And you say what?
A. A bunch of reasons.
Q. Why did Jay put that campsite there? Go ahead.
A. Well, we was going to go to North Carolina. That's where I wanted to go in North Carolina. We was going to go to California, you know, he was getting all ready to, and I wrecked my car we were going to take, and that was after I quit at Bush Industries. So we got our jobs at Amos’s and was working there and, you know, after a while - -
Q. Let me stop you there and ask you one question. You said this morning that Shelly Anderson took off to California because she was fleeing the law, right? The lady is killed and she is involved in it, and she took off to California?
A. That's the impression I got.
Q. You knew for a fact that Shelly, Jay Buckley and you had all been planning to go the California long before that, right?
A. We had talked about it.
Q. And you knew she wanted to go to California, right?
A. I guess, she was going to go with us.
Q. But you are saying dispute (sic) her talking to you guys about it a month or so before Kathy Wilson comes up missing,
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that the reason she went to California was to flee the police and not because she wanted to go to California all along.A. That's the way I took it.
Q. Go ahead.
A. All right. After a while he started talking about going horseback cross-country, Jay was and stuff and said he was going to move up in the woods. He mentioned he had three or four weeks left on parole when he did move up there. He just said he was going to move up in the woods and asked me if I had any good spots, and I said I don't know. The only woods I knew up of up there was up behind Brenda's house, so I guess that's reason we went up there, you know, the first couple of nights we camped out and Brenda would come down at nighttime.
Q. Brenda was staying with her grandmother?
A. No, with her mom.
Q. Where does her mother live in relation to that campsite?
A. In a sense you could say it's in their backyard in a way. As a matter of fact, in order to get - - well, not in order to get there, but I don't even know - - if you went the way by the road, you have to go down go over the hill across the creek and walk through mud about knee deep to get to the camp to go on the roadway, going to her house, you walk through her yard walk into her horse pasture and walk to the end of the pasture, which is probably three or four acres, and
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make a left, and there is pretty much a path that leads across a couple of open fields up in there.Q. Does Brenda live on a farm?
A. No, she has got a barn. She had a few horses, a couple of horses.
Q. Where does Brenda's grandmother live?
A. At the time of this she lived down on - - right off of Mosher Street on - - not Dow Street but the next one down there, way right down by Falconer Park where the bridge is out. I don't know if you know where I am talking about.
Q. The reason we are going through this rather boring stuff is later on in your statements you come up with the bright idea that Jay Buckley has stashed stuff at Brenda's farm and Brenda's grandmother's house and stuff that belongs to Kathy Wilson and necklaces and shoes and everything else, and you tell the police that, don't you, later on?
A. They asked me if I knew of any places where stuff could be, and I said it's possibly up there.
Q. And so you start sending them up to that place, and you didn't start sending them up to that place after they ask you, tell us about Brenda's farm and Brenda's grandmother and the horses, and you start telling them about that, and low and behold, two statements later, that is where everything is at. How do you explain that?
A. I don't know. I don't have an explanation for it.
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| Statement of Jan. 24, 1990 |
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