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Statement of Jan. 16, 1990 |
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There is a map of the AKELEY INTERSECTION that is quite relevant that you may wish to load before you get started here. GUY IN THE VAN (ROLLING PAPERS)**
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Statement of January 16, 1990 |
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MR. MASSA: No objection.
THE COURT: It's admitted.
(Document marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 38.)
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Let me show you what has been marked for identification purposes as Defendant's Exhibit 36. May I ask if you ever saw that before?
A. I - - I don't remember.
Q. A diagram of the Akeley intersection, isn't it?
A. That's what it is.
Q. I (sic) showed it to you in that statement, and you confirmed that that was the route of travel of your vehicle, right?
A. I believe so. I believe I drew him a diagram.
Q. It says right here at the bottom, obtained this information on 12-23-89 from Michael Brown - - 12-23-89, I'm sorry, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. So that on 12-23-89, did you tell the police officer that was the route of travel at the Akeley intersection of the van?
A. Yes.
MR. SMITH: I move for admission of Defendant's 36, Your Honor.
MR. MASSA: No objection.
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THE COURT: Admitted.BY MR. SMITH:
Q. In that route of travel, you don't have the van going across the bridge, do you?
A. Yeah, I do.
Q. You do? What is this?
A. The bridge.
Q. The Akeley bridge?
A. Yes.
Q. What is Vehicle Two here?
A. That's a vehicle coming off US - - US 62, I think.
Q. US 62?
A. Yeah.
Q. There are two vehicles in that diagram, isn't there? One marked one and one marked two?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you know what it means?
A. Excuse me. One means Brown's van. Two means Jeeperson's [sic] vehicle.
Q. Jesperson. They are telling you they have an eyewitness to your van, right, and they are showing you where she is at and what route she traveled and you are telling them what route you traveled.
MR. MASSA: Your Honor, may I approach the bench, please?
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(Off-the-record discussion at side-bar.)BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Mr. Brown, this map has little indications, does it not, for your van, Brown's van, Jesperson's van and Kathy Wilson's purse, those three locations on there, and it depicts the Akeley intersection?
A. That's what it is.
Q. And you're shown coming down, turning left into the intersection, coming across the bridge a little ways, turned around and going back up a little ways?
A. Yes.
Q. And the other van is off on another road, pulls off and gets on 62, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Is that when Kathy Wilson stood up in the middle of the - - between the two seats?
A. I don't know if she ever - -
Q. Jay Buckley and the passenger seat?
A. I don't know if she ever did stand up. I said I never seen it.
Q. And you don't know whether you had shoulder length long hair on that day, do you?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Okay. Mr. Brown, let's go to Defendant's Exhibit 38. This is your statement of January 16, 1990. This is a
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shorter statement. Was there a reason you came back to the police on January 16, 1990, and gave another statement?A. I don't believe I went to the them at that time. They would have had to have come to me.
Q. They are making appointments with you, that's right. First part of that he tells you you have the right to remain silent. You're present with your attorney. Mr. Tridico is there. Mr. Herzog is there. He reads your rights to you, right? And you go through all that, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. And then he says, he says, all right, Michael, would you please sign your name right here. Michael, as I said, this is going to be brief, but there are some questions I want to ask you, and remember, speak up.
A. All right, all right.
Q. In your statement you talked to me about electrical tape you got when you went into the basement, and Jay told you to get the electrical tape that was down there; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did the electrical tape come from; do you remember?
A. Yeah, one time he brang a gym bag of tools like a hatchet, sockets and different things like that, you know, different tools down to my house, and when he was working at
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Amo Marina, because that was all the tools he had, and I let him use my tools while we was working, and he left them ones at my house.Q. Is that where you got the electrical tape, out of that bag?
A. It was down in the bag, yeah.
Q. It was in that bag?
A. In the basement, yeah.
Q. So if we - - if you told us before that you got it off a shelf in the basement, that wouldn't be right?
A. Well, I did tell you I took a roll off the shelf I had given the Jamestown police. I did tell you that.
Q. Well, if you got the electrical tape out of his bag, why did you take a roll off the shelf and give it to Jamestown police?
A. It was all the same stuff.
Q. All electrical tape? We are not taking about two different rolls of electrical tape?
A. Yeah, there are two different rolls rather, but it was the same. It was all the same stuff.
Q. Did you tell the police when you gave them that electrical tape, well, that isn't the roll that Jay Buckley got, but this is electrical tape, and this is what it looks like? Or did you tell them this is off the same roll I got from Jay Buckley? Which did you tell them?
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A. I think I probably told him it was off the same roll.Q. Why did you tell them that lie?
A. I don't know. It was because I was trying to tell them it was the exact same stuff.
Q. You told them it was the same roll, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. (Marking.) No idea why you told that lie?
A. No.
Q. Do you know where this tape went to? Did he use it all? You say what?
A. I have no idea. Oh, he used most all of it, not all of it, but most all of it.
Q. Where did the rest of the tape go?
A. I have no idea. We looked for it, Joe Welch and I looked for it around my basement and Hanson, you know, from Chautauqua County. We looked for the tape and couldn't find it.
Q. But you gave them tape, didn't you?
A. Yeah, I did, a roll, an empty roll or pretty much empty.
Q. Is this the same tape he used on the shotgun?
A. Yeah.
Q. It came from the same roll?
A. Yes.
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Q. The day of the 18th, Michael Brown, you said that Buckley left you off at your house and he left?A. Yeah.
Q. You said in that statement that the two of you got something out of the shed.
A. Um.
Q. What did you get out of the shed that day?
A. We was looking - - I was looking around for the tape, and we got some - - I don't know what kind of rope. It was almost like a baling twine rope.
Q. That's a lie right?
A. Yeah.
Q. (Marking) why did you tell that lie?
A. I don't know why I told him I got it out of the shed.
Q. You, at different times, you have got the electrical tape out of a duffel bag, off the shelf in your basement, out of your shed, and out of different places. You got the twine out of the basement, out of the console between the van, out of the shed and out of all these other places. It's just a little detail, but why does it matter? Why does it matter where you get this stuff at? If you're there and you're observing it, you know where it came from. But you told them, as far as electrical tape and this baling twine goes, that it has came from four or five different places,
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depending on which statement you make. How come?A. Um, I don't know.
Q. You don't know. He goes on to ask you, is this the same type of rope you gave us the other day when we were down in your basement?
A. Yes, it came from that roll.
Q. That true or a lie?
A. That's true.
Q. It came off that same roll, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. So that roll that you give them - - we are not talking electrical tape, we are talking baling twine - - if later on you say that he, Mr. Buckley, used all that up, then obviously this would be a lie, because here you are saying some of it was left that you gave them a roll off of?
A. This here one, there was some left, because I gave them some of it, but the other one, I don't remember saying it.
Q. The other one what, electrical tape or twine? I am talking just twine now.
A. That's what I am talking.
Q. You say there are two rolls of twine or one roll of twine?
A. No, there is only one big roll.
Q. And you gave them some of the twine that Jay
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Buckley used to tie Kathy Wilson up, right? There was some left on the roll?A. Some of the same stuff, yes.
Q. And this is the truth here?
A. Yeah.
Q. If we come to a statement later on when you say, hey, he used all the twine, there was none left, then that we can mark as a lie?
A. If I say that, yes.
Q. Just setting the ground rules. Did you get anything else out of the shed?
A. No.
Q. In fact, you didn't get anything out of the shed that day, right?
A. True.
Q. You had twine and electrical tape and particle boards and garbage bags and all kinds of things flying out of that shed, but you're saying today you didn't get anything out of there? This is a question. Jamestown Sterling, the man in the red van - - Jamestown Sterling is not the man in the red van. Jamestown Sterling is the name of a place where people work, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Jamestown Sterling, the man in the red van, the
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maintenance worker, can you give me any type of name? What do you say?A. They called him - - Woody is what they called him, because he had a Woodstock, you know, carved on his hand, just a nickname.
Q. Truth or a lie?
A. I think they called him Woody or something like that.
Q. Is that truth or a lie, because he had Woodstock carved on his hand, just a nickname?
A. That's true.
Q. So now you know the guy's name is Woody?
A. I told you I guess his name could have been Woody.
Q. Why didn't you tell them that three statements ago? They are asking for a name, and you don't know the name, and later on you don't know the name again. Here you know his name is Woody.
A. I said I thought that's what they called him, Woody. I didn't know for sure.
Q. Is this the guy that you talked to? What do you say?
A. Yeah, he is the one that they call Woody. I am not sure of his real name. He is probably, I don't know, 30. He has got dark hair, not real long, kind of thinned out like he got a bald spot on top of his head.
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Q. That true or a lie?A. That's a true description.
Q. Is it a true description of Woody?
A. Of this guy that I presumed that they called Woody or something like that.
Q. Now, you don't know if they call him Woody or not?
A. I said I think they did.
Q. Did he wear glasses?
A. No.
Q. Moustache? Beard?
A. No.
Q. And the question is blocked out, but your answer is there. Where (sic) do you say?
A. It's a red van. They called it the bomb squad. I'm not sure of his name. I did not work there that long to get to know anybody. I worked there for four weeks at the most.
Q. Where did you see him that day?
A. At the ball park by my house where they all came for lunch.
Q. He parked his van, got out and was eating lunch, and did you approach him?
A. I approached him, yeah.
Q. Why did you say I approached him, yeah, when he says he parked his van, got out, eating lunch? He didn't get
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out of his van, did he?A. I didn't say he did.
Q. I know. Mr. Herzog did. But you didn't dispute that, did you? What did you ask him?
A. I got some rolling papers off him.
Q. Did you get rolling papers off him or not?
A. Yeah, I did.
Q. You did?
A. Yeah.
Q. I thought you said the other day you didn't. You went over to get them, but he didn't have any or you didn't ask or something like that?
A. I told you I went over there, I was going to ask him for something different, and I didn't want to look stupid and asked him for rolling papers.
Q. I thought you said he didn't have any?
A. He gave me two of them, I believe.
Q. So he had some?
A. That's what I said, yeah.
Q. So this would be the truth here, right? If we find something different later on in this statement, that would be a lie, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. How long did you talk to him?
A. For about approximately two minutes.
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Q. Do you remember any - - do you remember - - any idea what time it was?A. I say roughly about 1:00. It could be later, yeah.
Q. Truth or lie?
A. At the latest I would say it was probably 1:00 or so.
Q. So 1:00 is when you see this guy in the ball field?
A. I am not saying at 1:00.
Q. Roughly?
A. Roughly, yeah.
Q. 1:00 is when you see this guy in the ball field. Hill's Department Store called you, you said, when you were home? And you say what?
A. Yeah.
Q. Whose account are they after?
A. It wasn't an account. They just said that a layaway was in.
Q. For who, do you remember?
A. It was - - it could have been Sears. I think it was Big N - - or not the Big N. Hill's, it was. My mom or my little sister.
Q. What did they say, the layaway for what is in?
A. I don't even - - I thought it was always Hill's,
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but they mentioned something about a layaway, and I told them they would have to call back later.Q. Let me guess your answer. You don't know what was laid away. You are not positive whether it was Hill's or not. You are not sure whether it was your mom or sister. You are not sure what account it was. Is that about it?
A. Well, that's true. It wasn't my account. It wasn't my layaway.
Q. Would that be about true, what I just said?
A. Yeah, I didn't know specific details about it, no.
Q. I just knew you wouldn't know specific details, because if you knew specific details, you would have to tell Mr. Herzog, wouldn't you. And they might check it out, right? Next question, you mentioned something to us about beer, that you stopped at someplace just past Westerdahl's, said along the road, Buckley's sister house?
A. All right.
Q. And then you went down the road a ways from that intersection and you stop for five minutes and beer [sic]?
A. Um-um, I think is what it says.
Q. Where did you get the beer?
A. Down from Quality Market in Falconer.
Q. Who got the beer?
A. Jay did.
Q. When did he get the beer? When did you get the
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beer, it says?A. He got it after he left my house, because he came back with the beer and the receipt and everything was in the little bag; just a 12-pack.
Q. That's a lie, right (marking)?
A. Yes, I was with him when he got it.
Q. About - - I don't even know - - that's your answer. Now that's important. That's what Mr. Herzog says. That's important. When he went to get the beer, you went and got some tape and twine and stuff like that, and he went and got the beer and came back? What do you say?
A. In about - - I don't even know how long it was. He was gone for a while longer than just to get a beer.
Q. That's a lie, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. (Marking).
A. I didn't see him go get the beer, but he was gone for a while longer.
Q. In other words, he didn't go get the beer and come back and say here, I got the beer, here's the beer, I will be back in a little bit, and leave again, or he left after you tied and wrapped tape around her mouth, or did he leave and never come back until the time you said it looked like he changed his clothes and washed his hair, or did he come back once and leave and come back again? Mr. Herzog is not
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suggesting to you another story, is he?A. He is trying to make it clear in his mind, I would imagine, what I am telling him.
Q. And you are going to make it clear. What is your answer?
A. Yeah, he did. He stopped. I remember when he come back, I was over at the gas grill and drinking a beer when he came back, so he must have come to my house and left.
Q. That's a lie, right (marking)?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So he left - - when he left the first time, was Kathy in the van?
A. Yeah.
Q. That's a lie, right (marking)?
A. Yeah.
Q. And when - - and he went to Quality, came back to your house and left and came back again?
A. Yeah, uh-huh.
Q. That's a lie, right (marking)? The little plastic card that you said that he had and that you saw here, where did that ever go (marking)?
A. Last I seen it was he had it. Then it says last I seen of it, he had it.
Q. That's true?
A. That's true.
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Q. Did he put it in someplace? Did he put it in his pocket or leave it in his hands the last you saw it?A. Last I seen it he had it in his bands. I believe he stuck it - - yeah, because when he at [sic] the house he stuck it on the little console thing in the van, and that's when I seen it, and after I didn't really see it.
Q. He stuck it on the little console thing in the van. That would be a lie, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Why would you tell that lie?
A. I don't know.
Q. (Marking) you have Mr. Buckley showing it to you at the picnic table in your story of Monday and Tuesday, and here the last time you see your plastic card was on the console of the van, right?
A. That's what it says on here.
Q. And you just can't figure out why you told that lie at all, but you are going to tell this jury you are definitely not lying about seeing that plastic card, you definitely saw one, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you haven't been able to find it to give it to the police, right?
A. Obviously if I knew where it was, I would have given it to them.
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Q. And you have no idea why you lied about where you last saw that?A. I don't remember why I did.
Q. Question, Buckley said to you, you stated in the statement that somebody could be affected, he really didn't mean to do that? You said what?
A. Yeah.
Q. Explain that a little bit more. Just exactly what brought that up? What were you talking about and what did he say to you at that time?
A. What brought it up was after it was already done, you know, and be was just talking about what we was going to do later on, different things like that, and I told him I had to go pick up Brenda, and I said something to him like I asked him, is this the first time you have done this, and he told me no, but as long as you shut up and keep your mouth shut, then we will never get caught, and after that he told me I really didn't want to do it, he said, but if I would have let her go she would have knocked us out.
Q. Is that true or a lie?
A. Some of it is.
Q. Some of it's true; some of it's a lie. We can take our half off (marking) . Did he ever tell you what happened that made him stab her?
A. He got pissed off.
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Q. At what?A. When they were down in the woods, you know, I seen that when he got mad and stabbed her, and you know, she started wrestling around - -
Q. Not true, right? She didn't start wrestling around with him?
A. That's a lie, yes.
Q. (Marking) go ahead.
A. It looked like she probably might have kneed him in the balls or something like that, but that's - - but that is when he said ouch, you know, and she started scuffling around, and he said ouch, you bitch, and that's when he stabbed her.
Q. So they started scuffling around, had this fight, he stabs her, and you think he might have got kicked in the balls in the process of the fight? Totally different from what you told Monday and Tuesday, right?
A. No, I told him she must have did something because he didn't say ouch for nothing. There is obviously a reason for it.
Q. You are telling here they are fighting, they are wrestling around, aren't you? Started scuffling, started wrestling. He said ouch. He must have got kicked in the balls. You don't have him having sex with her like you did Monday and Tuesday. I mean, they are fighting. Totally different story, isn't it?
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A. Somewhat I guess, yeah.Q. Mr. Herzog says okay, you saw it, you saw them wrestling around. He was behind her, appeared to be thrusting her like he was having intercourse with her, and she starts moving around? That's not Mr. Herzog telling you what to say again, is it?
A. No.
Q. What do you say?
A. Yeah.
Q. You agree with that entirely, right? Did you see her kick him in the balls?
A. No, I didn't. I just seen her moving around, you know, like trying to get away from him and then he sprawled out.
Q. She wasn't trying to get away from him, was she?
A. Not that I seen, no.
Q. That would be a lie (marking)? When he held that - - when be yelled that, he was mad?
A. Yes, he sounded bummed out.
Q. Did he look mad?
A. You could say that he wasn't real mad, mad. It was just in a matter of seconds; ouch, bitch, boom, stabbed her, that quick. It was real quick.
Q. It was kind of almost simultaneous to the - -
A. He had - - I do remember he told me also - -
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Q. Go ahead.A. He told me also after that was all done, he said he was - - he said he was just going to leave her there, you know, just leave her there, and then after she got found, it's great if she did or didn't, but you know, he didn't want to take the chance of her testifying against him or - - and telling on him.
Q. Is that true or a lie?
A. He did make mention of that, yeah. I'd say that's - -
Q. Didn't want to take the chance of her testifying against him or telling on him? He told you that?
A. Something to that effect.
Q. If later on you said that was a lie, then this would be a lie, right? Did he tell you he was going to just leave her there?
A. Yeah.
Q. Who is the guy that made the statement that you got punched out or somebody punched you out that night; is that correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Who punched you out?
A. I didn't get knocked out, but I got punched out - -
Q. I got punched in - -
A. I got punched in the mouth by Jay.
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Q. Jay punched you? Why did he punch you?A. I couldn't tell you.
Q. Where were you?
A. We was in the van, you know, after it was done. I was pissed off myself because, you know, on the way out there, I didn't assume he was going to kill her. I assumed he was just going to drop her off somewhere, you know, and that would be that; just scare her a little bit, and if you tell, we are going to get you or something, but things just didn't work out, you know, that's when I started asking man, how many times have you - - and I can't see no more. My page is cut off.
Q. You say here that Jay Buckley punched you in the mouth in the van after he's done killing Kathy Wilson on May 18, 1988?
A. That part of it is false.
Q. That's a lie (marking). Does this fit in the same category of a lie as the square in the mouth and shotgun and the shotgun shell and everything else?
A. The shotgun shell and stuff, that's all true.
Q. Why are you telling this? Are you telling this because you're trying to make it appear to the police that you're a scared boy, and here is big bad Jay Buckley doing all these nasty things to you?
A. It did happen, but not that day.
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Q. We are talking May 18. You're telling them after he killed Kathy Wilson, and you're pissed off, and you say something to him and he punches you in the mouth. And before you tell them he hit you in the mouth with a square. That's all a lie, right? It's all a lie, right?A. It didn't happen that day, no.
Q. We are not talking about any other day. We are talking about May 18, '88, okay? As a matter of fact, when you were working at Bush Industries, you were working at Bush Industries, you lied about your age so you could work there, right?
A. I lied about my age everyplace I worked.
Q. That's right. You lied about your age everyplace, and you might be lying about your age here, too. You didn't bring anything showing your age today, did you?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Can you ask your mom to bring a birth certificate down?
A. If it's not going to be an inconvenience to her, I will consider it.
Q. See if you could. You told Jay Buckley when you first met him at Bush Industries you were in your 20's, didn't you?
A. I think he was the only one I worked with that knew that I wasn't very old. I don't think I told him I was
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ever in my 20's. I think he knew that.Q. Didn't you tell everybody you were running into in those days you were in your 20's? You didn't want to tell them you were 16 and dropped out of school in the tenth grade and were working illegally and probably driving illegally and everything else? You more or less told everybody you were in your 20's, didn't you?
A. Yeah, I had to.
Q. I am not saying you didn't. But you didn't have no problem when the police were interviewing in this case, I just barely turned 16, and that big bad Jay hits me in the mouth and punches me and hits me with squares and does all this stuff to me. That's the game you're playing here, isn't it?
A. No.
Q. Let's go on. He says, did he say anything after he hit you? Next page.
A. He just told me if you plan on spilling your guts, and then he gave me that shotgun shell there, and that was after we already come back to Falconer, after I dropped him off, he said you can just take this, because this is going to be used - - used on you, and he said this is for you, you know.
Q. All right. That's not true, is it?
A. Yeah, that all happened.
Q. I am a little confused, Mr. Brown. Clue me in
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here. What does he show you the shotgun shell and what day is it and where are you at?A. When he gave me the shotgun shell, when he was showing it to me and telling me he was going to - - not to say nothing and all that good stuff, was on that day, and then the following Saturday he says, you know, remember what I told you and - -
Q. So the following Saturday he didn't show you a shotgun shell or any other shell?
A. That's the day he gave it to me.
Q. That's the day he gave it to you?
A. I don't know why, you know, whether it was 357 or not.
Q. You read the number off the shotgun shell. That's what you said?
A. I said I thought it had the number on the shell or something somewhere. I am not positive. I thought it did.
Q. Let's not get sidetracked. When did he give you that shell? What date and where?
A. I believe it was Saturday when he gave it to me.
Q. Saturday when he gave it to you?
A. I think so. It was either Saturday or a Wednesday. I think it was Saturday though.
Q. It was Saturday or Wednesday. Can't you remember? I mean here's a guy threatening you with your life, saying,
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again, I am going to kill you, and showing you this shell, whatever kind it was, and saying this one is for you, and you can't remember where it happened at?A. I think it happened on Saturday. I don't remember if he gave me one on Wednesday when he was threatening me.
Q. The reason why you're bobbing and weaving on that one, is because you said at different times and different places he has given you this shotgun shell. You had him giving to you in the van. You have had him giving it to you at the crime scene. You've had him giving it to you after you got back from Falconer. You have had him give it to you on Saturday. You have him give it to you a lot of different places and a lot of different times. That's why you were having trouble with that, aren't you? And now you are saying flat out, gee, I don't remember. It was Wednesday or Saturday. I don't remember where. But that doesn't make a lot of sense, because if somebody is giving you a shotgun shell and threatening your life, it's something you would remember, isn't it? Where it happened and what happened and what the circumstances were? And now you are saying you can't remember?
A. He threatened me several times, but as far as him actually - - he showed me the shells, but as far as actually giving it to me, I think he gave it to me on Saturday. I am not positive.
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Q. Saturday. You can't have it both. If we find Saturday and we find Wednesday, we are going to have to mark one as a lie.A. No problem.
Q. Here you are saying Wednesday, aren't you? Do you want to mark it here and get it out of the way?
A. Go ahead.
Q. Jeff McCullough, he is the one that works for 84 Lumber. I can't remember. It seems to me you told me at one time you talked to him about you guys were going to get him for money. What do you say?
A. My brother - - my brother - - we used to drink and play poker and stuff with his mother, you know. He used to have card games, poker parties and stuff like that at his mom's house, and my brother - - and my brother and [sic] talked to him a little bit about it, you know, and it was kind of planned, and somehow they just talked about that in front of - - in front of Jay like I believe it just might have been just me and my brother that might have been talking. I think that's when my brother told me, you know, then, and that's when Jay got the bright idea, well, you know, well, just hit him one of these days, just go down there and wait.
Q. Uh-huh. Jeff McCullough doesn't know Jay William Buckley, does he?
A. No, I don't believe so.
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Q. As a matter of fact, the people you are talking about hitting Jeff McCullough were you and your brother Ron?A. That's what it says here.
Q. That's what it says here. If we went to him and asked if he had ever talked to you about that, do you think he would tell us?
A. I doubt it, but you could try it. He still works there. He is the manager, so I don't think he is going to tell you that, so this was before Jay quit his job when he first decided to hit this guy, because we got out of work here at 5:00 and a lot of times 84 Lumber is still open until 8:00, and he said we would make it down there just in time.
Q. As a matter of fact, you even pulled Jeff McCullough into the story, and we are going to have to fake hitting Jeff McCullough and make it part of it, and they will think we robbed him, and he will be in on it and in on the take, right?
A. Not exactly.
Q. Weren't you saying it, Jeff McCullough knows about it and is part of the deal?
A. I don't believe so, no.
Q. Well, you talk about this later on. We will find out later on, right? Jay told you that he called from Zayre's Department Store, outside or inside, did he tell you?
A. Sounded like it was outside, because I heard cars
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and stuff but he told me - -Q. (Marking)
A. - - couldn't say much, so either there was people around or he was inside. They could have had some outside sale or some stupid thing like that, you know, sometimes they set up stands outside and stuff, you know, outside sales. They sell topsoil and all that stuff.
Q. You go into a lot of detail about a phone call that never happened at Zayre's Department Store, which isn't involved in this case; a lot of detail. The next question, is there a phone outside?
A. Yeah, as a matter of fact, there are four phones altogether in that string of little stores where the liquor store is and stuff right there.
Q. Did he say to you he didn't - - did he say to you he didn't want to go inside the mall and call?
A. No, but if he did go inside the mall, he would have had to go inside the mall.
Q. Why wouldn't Jay want to go inside the mall?
A. Probably take too long getting in there. I don't know.
Q. By any chance did you know beforehand this was a setup, that when Jay called you that he was going to hit somebody?
A. He didn't tell me nothing.
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Q. He didn't tell you before, you know, if I call you, you come because I got somebody in mind?A. No, he always told me if I call you just come. In other words, so I did. I was kind of, you know, he was quite a bit older than I was, just the age itself, kind of, you know, I have a paranoid side. He would call me, and I would come.
Q. You're playing that card again, aren't you? The same guy you are saying, gee, I am young, and he is old, and I am scared to death of him. This is the guy who won't let me use the van (sic) and won't pay the money you owe back to him, and you try to wire with the police and have the animosity (sic) to go talk to him after you try to wire him. But you're scared to death of him, and he is much older than you?
A. Yes, he is twice my age.
Q. Okay. But he never talked to you before about a certain place?
A. No certain place.
Q. The Akeley intersection that we talked about, do you remember seeing anybody at the intersection that drew your attention?
A. It seems like there was a lady there - - it seems like there was a lady walking her dog, an older lady. She wasn't young. I am pretty sure there was a lady there.
Q. Truth or lie?
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A. True.Q. There was an old lady with a dog?
A. Not real old, but there was a lady coming down that road walking her dog.
Q. You don't say anything at all there about a van passing you or somebody else in the van looking over at you or anything else, right?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. How come?
A. I never paid too much attention to any of the traffic. I don't know.
Q. Next question was anybody else there that would look at you or draw your attention?
A. No.
Q. He is not hinting to you by asking all those Akeley intersection questions, somebody could have seen you there, give us a witness, fill in something there? He is not telling you that, right?
A. No.
Q. The parking lot at the mall, were there a lot of cars there in the parking lot?
A. Not - - no, not half as many while - - it was also in the daytime, too, so there wouldn't, be all that many there anyway.
Q. So that would be a lie, right (marking)? Where
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did Jay place the mesh shirt on Kathy Wilson's back? Could you describe it? It was like a collar or a leash?A. It says on Kathy Wilson's neck.
Q. Oh, on Kathy Wilson's neck, you described. It was a collar or a leash?
A. It was after we got out of Lander.
Q. Is that true?
A. That's what he used it for, a leash, after we were down in the woods.
Q. He didn't put the leash on her before that?
A. No.
Q. If you got that leash on her in the van in another statement that would be a lie, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. What point where?
A. As soon as we got out of the van, started walking down, she took off, he got her and put it around her neck and just walked her with it.
Q. Why didn't you mention that the first couple statements?
A. I don't know.
Q. Okay. As soon as the van - - okay, you say you got out of the van and took off and ran (sic) and he - - in other words, I am not trying to put words in your mouth. You got out of the van and walk down in, and he takes her bindings off. She
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takes off running. He goes over - - he goes over you. Says he knocks her down, got her back up, and it was this point when he put - - I am not so sure. It seems to me he had a jersey type shirt on her already. I don't think that was the shirt he used when he knocked her down. I think it was the flannel shirt. That's the question.A. There is another - -
Q. I know. And he is quoting you there from a previous statement, isn't here where you say it was the flannel shirt rather than the mesh shirt? Isn't he? That's in quotations marks. And he says he has the mesh shirt on her already?
A. I say yes.
Q. When he put the thing around her neck, it was a shirt he was wearing. He wrapped it around and pulled it in the back?
A. He stood in the back and had her walk.
Q. He is not telling you what to say when he goes through all that litany about what happened and how it's tied and everything else, is he?
A. No.
Q. The thing that you picked up at the crime scene, was it the tape that was around her mouth?
A. I started - - he told me to pick - - up pick things up, like I said. I picked things up everywhere - - or
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everything, I'm sorry - - that was lying around, and I am not sure if that ever got picked up or not.Q. Well, is that true? You weren't sure whether the tape got picked up or not?
A. I know I picked the tape up.
Q. So that would be a lie, right (marking)?
A. Yeah.
Q. I imagine it probably did. As a matter of fact, I am almost positive it did, because he picked some things up himself, but I never seen it after that. That's your answer right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you have any idea where this stuff ended up?
A. Most of it, to the best of my knowledge, up in the area of his campsite in that area between his sister's house and his house on Falconer or Stillwater, in that area because it's the same woods.
Q. How did he get rid of it?
A. Tossed it. He specifically told me he tossed her shoes on the way to Brenda's house.
Q. That's a lie (marking)?
A. Yeah.
Q. He didn't toss any of that stuff or the shoes because we know the shoes were there.
A. I don't know what, you know - -
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Q. Why did you tell that lie, about him tossing that stuff?A. I don't know why he (sic) said he tossed his shoes.
Q. Why did you say he tossed the other stuff at the campsite?
A. That's what I figured happened to it.
Q. You told him that's what he did. Describe Kathy Wilson. The first time you saw her what did she have on?
A. She had like - - she had like black maybe like a whiteish color, wasn't all black; a blouse on. Seems like she had a white jacket when she got in my van. She didn't have nothing on when I seen over the van. I recall like a white jacket. It could have been a blanket too.
Q. All right. Now you say it wasn't all black. It was somewhat whiteish. A white jacket. You're now moving in in that direction right? You're still holding onto the black a little bit, but you're starting to move into the whiteish area of clothes, right? Where before you said definitely black, definitely pink, if it was white I would have known it, never been white, couldn't have been white. Now you're moving, aren't you? Are you moving because they told you what she was wearing, or are you moving because they asked you that same question ten times and you figured there was something wrong with your description? And oh, by the way, the reward poster says she was in a tan outfit, and somebody told you
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that?A. No, I had known that for a long time, but the reason I just started - - I am starting to get into it the same reason all these statements I kept telling them a little bit more and a little bit more.
Q. Mr. Brown, maybe you don't read a lot, but the reward posters have a description of what she is wearing, and all somebody has to do is tell you one of these days, hey, that's what she is wearing. That's what the reward poster says, and you're interested in the reward.
A. I seen the reward posters on the streets.
Q. Assuming they know she is in a tan outfit, what is the sense in telling them she is in a black outfit?
A. So they would know that - -
Q. So they know you're lying?
A. Kind of so they think I wasn't going to tell them the truth, because at first, I didn't think the deal was all that great, but then I did.
Q. From now on we are going to have her in a tan outfit, from this statement on?
A. I don't know when I finally told them the truth about that.
Q. Question, jacket, now you are saying a short jacket or a suit coat, and you answer what? It wasn't one of those short ones.
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A. Oh, yeah. It wasn't one of those short short ones that a lot of people wear, about an average length like a suit coat.Q. Would you say a trench coat?
A. No, I didn't. (sic)
Q. Did you see Jay Buckley early in the morning at your house?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, here you're describing this jacket she had to them and you are saying after the second or third time they ask you when you originally say you never saw it, it's average length like a suit coat. It wasn't a short one. That's kind of an in-the-middle, fence-line answer, isn't it? Average, can't go wrong with that?
A. Just a regular suit coat.
Q. When you saw Jay Buckley standing beside Kathy Wilson's van, what was he wearing?
A. When I first got there he had a pair of jeans on, and he had his stone wash jacket with baseball cap, and his jacket was like trashed like all his clothes were super wet and muddy. That is why I am positive he must have covered or crossed the creek to go over to use the phone at Zayre's.
Q. That's all a lie, right (marking)?
A. Yeah.
Q. You didn't pull in. He wasn't there standing next
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to her car. He didn't have muddy and wet clothes on. You didn't figure that's how he got them wet and muddy because he crossed the creek at Zayre's, and you were telling the police all that to try to get Jay Buckley convicted of this crime?A. No.
Q. Wet and muddy clothes, that proves he made the phone call from Zayre's, right?
A. No.
Q. When he got in her van, did he have his jean jacket on?
A. Yeah, he did.
Q. That truth or a lie?
A. That's the truth.
Q. How did you know to go to the entrance of the Chautauqua Mall? Did Jay tell you where he would be?
A. Right by the movie theater.
Q. That would be a lie, right (marking)?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to show you something here. Here, these are pictures taken. Look at the picture that is taken at the main entrance of the mall. There is Quality and Sears and the theater over here. That would be the same side that you go in. Give me a general idea that this is a yellow line down this in one parking lane. About where was Kathy Wilson's van that you pulled up next to? We have got pictures don't we,
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Michael? They are showing you pictures of the mall. Showing pictures where her van is located?A. No.
Q. They are showing you pictures and saying, here's a yellow line, this is Sears, this is Quality and this is the theater. So they are not showing you pictures of the other side of the mall. They are not showing you pictures of the front of the mall. They are showing you pictures of the cinema side of the mall.
A. I already told them previously it was on the other side.
Q. And the yellow line down this is one-lane parking about here. They are showing you pictures, aren't they?
A. Yes, I told you the other day.
Q. And you say what?
A. Oh, man. Her van was there when I came in. I pulled up the opposite.
Q. Question by County Detective Tridico, did Jay Buckley, was he a picture bug? Where did he get his pictures developed?
A. He had - - it almost seems he had a real good friend in school, you know, they do photography class, and I remember one time way back he had pictures developed through his friend, but other than that I really don't know of a local - - he never really had that many pictures developed.
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Q. Who was his friend?A. It was a female. That's all I know. She was in a higher grade. I only finished ninth grade in there.
Q. They told you at this point, have they not, they searched every development store in Jamestown looking for photos that were developed of Kathy Wilson, and they couldn't find one. Now they come back and say we can't find anything. What about this camera. If we could get a photo, we could get him nailed then. And you say, some lady, some photography don't know her name. You give one of those weasel stories they can't check out?
A. They never said that and I did not.
THE COURT: Are you almost done?
MR. SMITH: Your Honor, I am done with this statement. That's the last thing. I move for admission of Exhibit No. 38.
MR. MASSA: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted. Court will recess until 1:15.
(Lunch recess taken.)
(Documents marked Defendant's Exhibit Nos. 40, 41, 42 and 43.)
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Mr. Brown, we just finished your statements through January 16, 1990, and you would agree with me, would
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you not, that through that statement you're leaving some things out, right?A. Yes.
Q. Some major things you're leaving out is Ed Foster's house, right? Trip to Gerry, New York, Ed Foster's house, you're leaving that out?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said did that to protect Ed Foster, right?
A. I said I didn't feel no need to bring his name up.
Q. All right. You also left out the gravel pit and those statements the cornfield, the gravel pit by Mr. Buckley's sister's house?
A. I guess.
Q. It's not in there. We just went through that statement, It's not there. You also left out the Riverside Road stop where supposedly Mr. Buckley puts these items in the T-shirt, takes the film out of the camera and all that?
A. Right.
Q. And that's where you say later on he put the Danny Boy's T-shirt?
A. I didn't say that.
Q. We will come to that and see if you did or not. But those are the three things you left out so far, major, major details. Why did you leave the other two out, the cornfield-gravel pit by Mr. Buckley's sister's house, and the
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Riverside Road where you stop and have some beers and he puts this stuff in the T-shirt?A. I don't know.
Q. No particular reason?
A. I don't know.
Q. Let me show you what has been marked for identification purposes as Defendant's Exhibit No. 40, which is a police report dated 1-18-90, correct? Right here is your date.
A. Yeah, you're right.
MR. SMITH: Move for admission of Defendant's Exhibit 40.
MR. MASSA: May I see it?
MR. SMITH: Move for admission of Defendant's Exhibit 40.
MR. MASSA: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MR. SMITH:
Q. Now, in this police report, Michael, second page, you say a couple interesting things to the police, and this is a statement they take from you on 1-18-90, two days after you gave that last statement, right?
First of all, you say here, well, let me read it to you. Quote, Brown also advised when asked if Jay ever said he would kill someone, Buckley told my sister Nova he would
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Statement of Jan. 16, 1990 |
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